If you feel authors should retain control of their fics...

An ongoing debate regarding hard copy zines being scanned and emailed has sprung up in the Star Wars zine community. This flyer was taken to Eclecticon in New Jersey last month.

The webmistress in question refuses to discuss the matter privately, so we are taking the debate public. More info here:

[link deleted].

And the flyer itself:
AnotherSky.Net: Fanfiction Piracy

Don?t allow this unscrupulous website to set a precedent that could affect all fanzine editors and their contributors?


Against the express wishes, requests, and demands of many fanfic writers and fanzine editors, Melanie Guttierrez, the webmistress of AnotherSky.net, has been systematically converting fanzine stories ? indeed, the contents of entire fanzines ? to electronic format, to e-mail to anyone who writes to her requesting a copy. She has developed an extensive listing, including fanzines still currently in print, and fanzines dating as far back as the early 1980?s, before the possibility of widespread Internet exposure was even a consideration to ?zine editors and contributors.

While the Internet has indeed become a fast and easy way to distribute large quantities of fanfiction, some people still do not wish their work to appear on the Internet or via electronic format, for various personal ? and even professional ? reasons. Their right to keep their material off of the Internet should be as respected as the right of others to post material to as many sites as they like. But as Ms. Guttierrez herself explains on her webpage, she considers the distribution of fanfiction to be more important than the wishes of the fanfiction?s creators. Ms. Guttierrez has made it clear over the years that she does not recognize the validity of ?zine editors? or fanfic authors? exclusive creative rights over their own material ? a principle of etiquette that has long been recognized in fannish circles ? and she has a history of posting fanfic on her site even when the creators of that work have explicitly denied her permission to do so.
Now she has expanded her effort to include entire fanzines of material.

A growing group of fanwriters and ?zine editors have been protesting this practice, to no avail. Complaints made via her website?s contact form result only in blank automated reply messages, or no response at all. Despite repeated requests, the unauthorized stories and fanzines have not been removed from the listing. This not only violates the creators? rights to their work, it is also a violation of current copyright law. Contrary to long-held beliefs, fanfiction is afforded specific limited protections under certain copyright codes. In the face of her refusal to respect other?s rights, those fans who do not wish to have their works redistributed indiscriminately on the ?Fan To Fan? site have been forced to take the issue of copyright violation to Another Sky?s web-host and ISP. We have been told as of November 1, 2002, that her web-host is investigating the matter. More support, and more complaints, are needed!

We in the Star Wars fanfiction community urge fellow fannish creators of all genres to register their protests of this practice, lest [link deleted]. set a damaging precedent for other unscrupulous and/or well-meaning-but-uninformed webmasters to follow. Please help support your fellow fans in their right to deny permission for Internet distribution of their works. It only takes a few minutes?

You can report this unethical activity and copyright violation to Another Sky?s web-host by sending an
e-mail to [link deleted].. Please also e-mail your complaints to Ms. Guttierrez?s ISP at [address deleted] (using AT&T WorldNet to send copyrighted materials without permission is a violation of their Terms of Service.) And finally, please register your complaints about this practice directly on the ?Fan To Fan? contact form at Another Sky?s website, found at: [link deleted]. There is always the chance that if we can convey to her the

 

I'm going to watch this very carefully.

Melanie's view, obviously, is different--she believes that she is sharing public works.

I will reserve my personal opinions on the matter and remain in this thread only in a modding capacity.

People can discuss this issue--should fanfic be "public domain" or should it be only author controlled?--but let's not go in for the drama. If I see the drama masks come out, I'm locking.

 

As an author who has her stories posted in quite a few places I lean moreso twords "Author controlled". I understand the desire to share fan fiction but I feel that ULTIMATLEY they are MY works and MY stories, and before we go splitting hairs about copyright issues in fan fic, note that there is a lot of discussion on this (and other boards) about 'plagerism'... for the sake of THIS particular argument, let's leave the finer points of who realy owns Star Wars ect to THAT particular thread.

I have a few pieces that are 'published' in different generations/ratings/stages of compleation. I also have access to a few pieces of work that the author has very specificly stated that it goes no farther than "Mrs. Robinson's" (which personally I find a bit of a shame... the peices in question are beautifly written but I will respect her wishes until I can wear her down! ) It is not my place to decide what and where it should be distributed... I respect her wishes as a writer, I would only hope mine would be too.

 

Murg, sorry if this is slightly less than sensical, I'm quite tired. X_X

I think that ultimately it is up to the authors to decide whether they want their fanfiction on the web. They are the people who wrote that story, and as such, should have complete control over what winds up.

If they wish that their stories not be listed, they should be able to have them taken down. (IMO, refusing to take them down shows a rather shocking breach of ettiquete as well.)

However, so long as the author gives the ok, I see no reason for them not to offer 'zine fics for those who wish to read them. (And, IMO, an author-approved print 'zine archive would be a wonderful idea, especially since 'zines are so hard to find.)

 

Sophita--

Just to clarify (since you were worried about clarity ). Are you saying basically that it should be in the authors' hands, but not in the hands of the 'zine editors? (In other words, if I had a story in a 'zine a few years ago that I really wanted in a web list, I could tell the webmistress, "Yes! List me!" but the 'zine editor shouldn't say, "No! That was for us!")

 

Isn't it common courtesy to remove a fic if someone asks you to?

And are there actually fanfic magazines out there who *charge* people to read them? Isn't that even more illegal than writing fanfic? I'd think that what anothersky is doing would be *more* legal than selling zines.

 

Just to clarify for folks:

Fanzines have been in existence for over 25 years; fanfiction was *not* created by the Internet! Editors and publishers labor to put together a well-laid out product, with editing, art, poems and other material to sell AT COST to other fans. Let me emphasize that again. At Cost. No one makes a profit or gets rich producing limited run fanzines. It works like this: you want to print 50 copies of your 100 page zine, do you think Kinko's is going to let you float your expense until you sell them all? No, the publisher pays up front for any and all costs and then hopes to recoup her expenses with sales.

Since much of this material was produced long before the Internet existed, there is no precedent for this situation. Authors who submitted to a hard copy zine had no expectation whatsoever that their material would be scanned, converted into an electronic file and then sent around the world.

Since the webmistress in question has refused to deal with this privately, the affected authors are making it public. Please feel free to pass on the URL's and info to other fanfiction lists and sites who might be interested.

Thanks for the input folks; I've enjoyed your comments!

 

I think that ultimately, it's up to the author. Which is why you should always seek the author's permission when you're going to use their fanfiction/fanwork in any way, and why you should certainly respect their request if they directly tell you they don't want you using their stuff.

I think that this is one of the best features of the fanfic community (not just in the SW fandom, but in every fandom I've been a part of) -- even though the technology exists to pretty much do whatever you want with someone else's works once they're online, we've created a self-imposed courtesy system, where people are respected as authors (or artists, or whatever) who have control over the what they've created. I think it would be awful to lose that.

 

Authors should be able to retain control of their work. Technically, no, it's not ours, as we are using characters and places copyrighted by George Lucas (thanks, George), but no one can really deny that our work is *ours*. Our effort and imagination and blood, seat, tears, etc, has gone into these stories, to then have someone claim them without permission, and refusing to take them down when asked is just shocking.

I agree that it would be awful to lose this etiquette. What it could concievably lead to is less and less people writing fanfic, as they're not sure who will end up holding it. That would be an awful shame.

CMinor.

 

I think authors should have the choice whether or not they want their fic published in an internet archive. That also means they should have the right to put their fic on the internet, even if it has been in fanzines.

But I do think the level of control some authors desire is unrealistic.
For instance, one internet site had some warning about 'don't print any of these fics without permission of the author'. That just seems petty to me - I don't see what possible damage printing the fic could cause an author. Suggesting that no one has the right to email your fic, or save it to their harddrive falls into that category as well, for me.

Another issue which comes up in these author debates, is what happens when the author has disappeared from fandom or the internet? Is it okay to archive without permission then, or is it better that no one reads them, rather than archive without author permission? I don't really know, myself.

 

"Orphaned" fics are a gray area...I wouldn't put them on my site, but if you make a good faith effort to find the author and honestly can't, I guess putting it up, properly attributed of course, isn't too terrible a thing to do (though if said author suddenly reappears and asks for it to be removed, I think it should be taken down).


is it better that no one reads them, rather than archive without author permission?

Assuming that you're referring to online fics with this...?

I guess archiving the orphaned fic to other sites would give it more exposure...but obviously, the person searching for the author and wanting to archive the story was able to find it, read it, and enjoy it. The idea that taking orphaned fics is good because otherwise "no one" would read it or it would be lost to the SW fandom seems like a non-issue to me. The person who wants it found it, and I'm sure that means others have too. Just because the fic might be less exposed than it could be doesn't necessarily mean that it somehow "ought" to be archived on other sites. At least, that's my take on it.


And I agree that some authors restrictions might seem overly broad and silly (like not letting people print it out -- what if I just don't like reading on the screen all day? And how would the person ever know that I printed it for myself?). But ultimately, I still think the final say-so over a story belongs to the author of that story. Some authors might use that say-so to do silly and nitpicky things (because there are silly and nitpicky people who are authors) and it might be annoying to the rest of us...but I can't say they don't have the right to (try to) be ridiculously strict with their work. Because it is theirs. But that's just MHO.

 

Before I was on-line, I didn't even realize fanfic exsisted. This discovery awakened a voracious appetite in me and I found every possible venue I could to fuel my newly found addiction. It was this addiction that led me to "The Corellian Embassy" which introduced me to the concept of "fanzines". Since then I have purchased many zines and gotten more than my money's worth of enjoyment out of them.

I realize that the characters that are written about are not the creation of the fanfic authors, but the time, love and patience that go into writing about those characters do count for something and the work that the author puts into the story should be respected. It seems just plain rude to me not to ask an author's permission to distribute a story in any format, be it web or print based. And, as much of a fanfic junkie as I am, I would not knowingly participate in such an exchange.

My hobby is graphics and I would hit the roof if someone used my work without my permission, the fact that I don't always get paid for it has nothing to do with it. I would hope anyone using the mentioned "service" would think about how they would feel if it was something that they had put the time and energy into that was being distributed.

To me it comes down to respect. If you really appreciate the fact that there are people willing to put their time into writing fanfic that you enjoy reading, then you should respect the authors enough to ask them how, and if, they want it distributed.


Geez, I need to take a deep breath after that rant.

 

I think that they really should! There should be online copyright laws! LOL anyways... I would hate to write a story and have someone take it and sayt htat it was theirs originally... Or just take it and sell it. That is one of the reasons that I have never posted a story...

 

Well, they're not going to sell fanfic anyway. None of us can. That's where the thorny part of copyright comes in--only the actual owner of the copyright can create tie-ins and other subsidiaries (or license that right out). If people get really persnickety about copyright as a legal concept, we're all going to have to take our stories down.

But never, never put original fic up on the web. You do have a copyright and you can certainly verify when you put the file up... but it's way too easy to steal, AND publishers will consider it previously published if you try to submit it to them.

Little bugaboo rant over.

 

never, never post a story on the internet...

The problem being faced here, though, and the reason that this discussion arose, is that the fic being distributed is originally from zines. So, once it's published in a zine, does that release the 'rights' to it in such a way that it can be published, advertised, distributed etc on the net? In my opinion ... no.

CMinor.

EDIT: I hope this post doesn't count as a drama mask, but it's probably the core issue to consider IMO and I thought it should be brought up - once your fiction is published anywhere does that mean your rights to it are ended?

 

Well, I was talking about original fic--saleable fic--not fanfic, so it's not the same thing. What happens with original fic is that magazines pay more for first rights, and sometimes don't want any secondary rights. The secondary rights remain with the author. I'm not sure how they work exactly (I'm no expert; I know about A-B of the full alphabet on this ), but the writer can then sell secondary rights (paperback rights, maybe) to someone else, and subsidary rights to someone else, all depending on the exact nature of the contract.

In the fanfic context, we kind of skip the money. So, say an informal agreement was made that a fanfic writer would give a story to a 'zine--that means the 'zine would have something like "first rights." Other moral rights would stay with the author; this isn't a total "I am giving you my soul" sort of deal. So I'm all in favor of writers being able to put their work up on the web after it's been in a 'zine, or in a 'zine after it's been on the web. I'm not in favor of 'zine editors stomping their feet and saying, "But that was in my 'zine! You can't put it on the web!" And all of it is totally informal, though. It's a social convention.

For the orphaned fics, my personal practice is to reluctantly give up on hosting them, because I haven't got permission--I have a beautiful illustration for a fic that a-p and A21 and I did and I have no idea who the artist is. Alas, because of that, I feel I shouldn't put it in my gallery. The other approach though, which I think is also valid and have considered, would be to put it up with an "artist unknown" and a plea to contact the artist and have him or her contact me for credit. (The temptation to do this is growing the longer it sits on my hard drive, I admit. )

Basically, I do think that authors should maintain control as a matter of courtesy. However, I also see Melanie's version of this, in which she's basically setting up an electronic library in which stories are passed around. Working in a library, I have to say, I've never consulted an author about whether or not he has anything against the city I work for.

Then again, the author of a pro work is being paid and there's some compensation involved, which he could theoretically refuse if a publisher was going to work with a distributor he didn't like for whatever reason. Tolkien mouthed off to a German publisher about a translation of "The Hobbit" in the 1930s because they asked questions that he deemed "impertinent" and were driving him to think he might be ashamed of having a German surname (they wanted to be assured that he was not of "semitic ancestry" or something). I don't know if that sale ever went through; I think the letter that's been collected was the one he wrote and didn't send.

But it can be done.

And now I'm just rambling.

 

I shouldn't be posting here, I should be writing a story post instead...

...anyway. The legalities of all this must get very tangled. We get away with fanfic mainly because the owners of the characters and settings turn a blind eye (or in some cases recognise fanfic as flattery and free advertising). Several authors don't want their work distributed without appropriate disclaimers and acknowledgement of the original creators. Some authors don't want high rated stories posted anywhere that doesn't have an age restriction, also to avoid legal complications.

If other people distribute said stories against the author's permission, and the stories end up attracting unwelcome attention, who gets the flak? The author or the person who distributed the story without permission?

There are good reasons for an author to want to have a say in what happens to their work!

 

It's been about a year since I have been an active participant on the board, and have been thinking about this issue for quite some time.

I like the idea of sharing fiction. Don't get me wrong. It is *why* writers create the works they do. They enjoy writing. They enjoy reading. And they enjoy sharing their works with others.

The internet has made the fanfiction genre something that has grown exponentially in years. Who doesn't love to point and click to find a story to get sucked into? I am thankful to the various authors who have shared their works online. It has made our community a bigger and vastly more diverse one.

But the decision to post, distribute, and decide *HOW* to share a selected body of work should remain exclusively in the hands of the writer. It should not be the decision of some third party who has taken it upon themselves to better fandom on some personal crusade.

Many of the writers who distributed fiction in zines did not anticipate the enormous future of the internet and are not comfortable - for various reasons - with such vast arena. And that is okay too.

As a writer and a reader, I fully respect the authors' wishes. If they want to post it to every site under the sun so every possible reader from every corner of the globe can read it, then all the power to them. If some want to post to one website, then that is their decision. In the same light, if a writer would like their work to remain in a smaller limited run print zine never to make it to the internet, well that is their right to. And like the other decisions to distribute electronically, it should be respected.

There are electronic archives online devoted to print fanfiction. Very large ones at that. The Corellian Embassy is a wonderful example of such an archive where generation of authors have gathered to share their print work. The difference between FTF and the Embassy is simple.

Every story at the embassy is posted with the author's *permission.*

Where the bruhaha with FTF enters the fold is at that simple concept of consent. I have no problems with FTF distributing print fiction if the author gives permission to do so. But time and time again, authors have written this webmistress to have their names and stories removed from circulation.

This simple courtesy is not only ignored; it is scoffed at and labled "fic feces" by the FTF webmistress. Authors who do not wish to participate are labled facists or fic nazis that want to sequester fiction.

Sounds like there is a political agenda hidden behind the altruistic gestures of spreading the fiction to the grateful masses. The namecalling is uncalled for and only serves to polarize our fandom more.

I am quite certain that every author on the FTF list would share their stories directly with a reader if they were asked. FTF took the author out of this process.

This certainly isn't an issue of web vs. print. I have participated both as a writer and a reader in both genres. I did not write the flyer that started off this whole discussion, but as a netter and a part of the print fiction community, I support everything that the flyer outlines. Fiction should remain the intellectual property of the author regardless of the grey nature of fanfiction and copyrights.

To hide behind the old excuse that you can't steal what isn't yours because Uncle George owns it all anyhow is nothing more than subterfuge if you ask me. It uses a whole different arguement to justify nothing more than textual poachery.

Whether it is fanfiction on the net, a poem in a college magazine or a novel published by Simon and Schuster, the individual written work is the product of the author's creativity, the dream of one individual. In picking the original venue to share this work, they have already decided which audience in which to share. Giving permission to distribute in one arena does not give blanket permission to distribute elsewhere.

I don't see this as being elitist or fascist in any way. It is a common courtesy that has been part of print and web etiquette for yea

 

Well, I don't think anyone had complete ownership over their fan fictions. I mean, LucasFilm owns the characters and so forth. However, us writers develop the stories, and I think that should grant us some respect - if not ownership - regarding the stories.

If the stories are being reprinted without the knowledge or permission of the original authors, well, that's just plain wrong. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

That's my two cents on the matter.

 

Well, they're not going to sell fanfic anyway. None of us can. That's where the thorny part of copyright comes in--

But some fanfic writers HAVE sold their stories, and thus became prowriters. Of course, they changed the names to protect the copywrited. Their original wording and concepts is what's copyrighted. Even if copyright is an iffy proposition for fanfic, it's not for profic. If someone like Melanie were to distribute such a story without the author's permission, i'd imagine there would be repercussions.

LQuiles

 

Coming in late to this conversation, but I had to add my bit.

Alot of the 'old school' fanfic writers, who published in zines in the late 70s and early 80s, used their real names. Not net names or nom-de-plumes. These people are now finding their names on the web without any say in the matter.
If people do not want their real names or their fic on the web (whether that be for personal or professional reasons is beside the point), they should be allowed to say no.

And those of us who are online by choice deserve the courtesy of control over where our fic goes and when.

 

Well, consider it this way. Anything published on the internet is public domain. That doesn't mean I like it, but that is the way it is.

Btw, what's tf.n's policy towards fanfics? Are they the property of the authors or of theforce.net?

~Rogue

 

TFN's policy is that TFN doesn't own them. (It's the disclaimer at the bottom of the archive pages.) No statement about who does own them is made.

 

Anything published on the internet is public domain.

Can we say a BIG SCREAMING ***** NO???


That would mean my COPYWRITEN non SW artwork is... that the "image attacks" on the official site are 'PD'...

I mean, lets not decend into the rediculas here.

 

That's true, Breezy.

However, it's very hard to keep people from stealing 'net stuff with a right-click on the mouse.