Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by hawk, Nov 3, 2002.
I agree with you aside from blaming Lucas for everything that "went wrong".
If I had a job on it, it would depend on what job I had. I mean, the dude typing up the code for the special effects has no say on what he thinks should be included, he just does it, or gets fired. So if I had his job, I'd say no, I wouldn't speak up. I'd take the paycheck.
But then, if I was one of the people that are allowed to talk to the director (or whatever it was that a previous poster mentioned), and part of my job was to give input on what I thought of the story, or what direction I thought it was taking, or even just my take on things, I'd definitely step up and say something. He doesn't have to listen, but at least I'd feel better saying something.
I don't think Lucas has a "suggestion box" outside his office. Although, that wouldn't be a bad idea!
"We see Yoda humbled into learning from his mistakes."
Hmmm, I guess this scene must have been excluded in the version I saw.
"From what I know of Lucas, he puts a lot of stock in informed opinions which could be why he doesn't publically test screen his new movies. Makes sense to me."
well sense 99.99999999999999% of his audience is not aging directors It doesn't make much sense to me. Asking your friends if your movie is good is not a very impartial way to test things.
"You guys. If you wanted to like the prequels, you could. You are the only thing holding yourselves back, no matter who you try to blame externally."
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'm sorry but you can't honestly believe that. What is your least favorite movie? Food? Person? Activity?
Is it your fault you don't like these things?
We are talking about the FILMS not the POSTERS.
I suppose it would be nice if you could throw out a premise and expect people to just discuss it as if it were true, but it doesn't work like that. In fact, debating the validity of a given premise is perfectly reasonable. You want people to discuss with the understanding that Lucas has surrounded himself with mindless yes-men and never entertains any ideas other than his own, but there are some of us who disagree with that basic premise (and indeed the facts disprove it).
However, I did appreciate your little warning earlier about wanting me and others to leave this thread so that you and your comrades can attack Lucas in peace. I admit, that did make me smile.
"I would post in here but I feel that I would just be yelled at. So I won't. But I will say that if I had a job working on Star Wars on less GL asked me. I would say nothing about what he wanted to do. Why? Because I would not want to be kicked off the moive set."
I never seen some one post in so many threads telling everybody about how he/she is not going to post in said thread. I fyou don't like a thread don't post that your not going to comment, then comment anyways, then say your leaving, then return and post again.
(Excerpts from Lucas and Speliberg "brainstorming" sessions)
Lucas: "So, Steveo, what do you think of the completed film?"
Speliberg: "How am I supposed to help you make changes if the movie is already finished?"
Lucas: "Uh, well, I just would like your honest opinion. You see, I'm a meglomaniac and don't want anyone else to have any say on any of my projects. I find that the best way to make quality films is to not accept any constructive criticism from fellow filmmakers or writers. So, what did you think of TPM....honestly."
Speliberg: (LONG pause) "Those were sure some good special effects.(Thinks to self: "Too bad the acting, directing, editing, and writing were HORRIBLE!") Yep. Real good special effects!"
I hate N'Sync but that's probably because I'm selfish and can't possibly comprehend their genius!
In response to Yoda seeming to be humbled:
Humbled may not be the right word. But definitely the end scene with Mace, Obi-Wan, and Yoda conveys that Yoda is pretty upset with the way things are turning out. I mean, he is the leader of the Jedi, you know it's got to affect him psychologically, that such chaos could happen when he is the leader of the Council. I mean Yoda's voice is full of disgust in his response to when Obi-Wan mentions Dooku and his "Sith controlling the Senate" tip off. And that affects him personally because he was Dooku's master. What went wrong? Yoda is upset of that you can be sure. I think the humbling will become more evident in Episode III, and definitely by ESB it's there. The once revered leader of the Jedi, now hiding on a swamp planet.
And in response to the crew's reaction to TPM: What was Ahmed Best's reaction during production compared to after the movie was released. I haven't heard much about him. Seem like all people want to do is take potshots at Jar Jar. I wonder how many of the people who saw it in theatres knew their was a real life actor standing in where Jar Jar was?
Interesting interpretation of Spielburg's thoughts and words. Too bad you wouldn't have the guts to put words in his mouth in his presence. It's all fun and games, when you're an anonymous internet poster... but the real world? That's something else.
I don't like tomatos. Is that the tomato's fault? Did the tomato "screw up"? Or does it have more to do with the fact that I personally don't like tomatos?
Of course it is hard to blame something that isn't sentient.
I don't like Barney the Dinosaur. Is that Barney the Dinosaur's fault? Did Barney the Dinosaur "screw up"? Or does it have more to do with the fact that I personally don't like flowery children's show hosts? Obviously there are others (mostly kids) who like Barney. You then have to contemplate who Barney the Dinosaur was meant to entertain. Was it meant to entertain the kids that love him, or people like me who don't enjoy that sort of thing? So did Barney Screw up? Not if he was aiming to please those kids. Is it his fault I don't like him? Of course not.
I tell you, the last place you would ever find me is in a "Barney" forum telling all his fans that he screwed up by not catering to my specific tastes.
Maybe you're just selfish and haven't truly tried to enjoy tomatoes. I say, you should buy a bunch of tomatoes and eat them every day until you REALISE that you always did really like them!
I could learn to like them if I wanted to like them.
Then why haven't you tried in all of these years?!?!
Why man, why????
Because I don't want to like them.
When it comes to to the choices Lucas made, the buck stops with him. I am not saying he is somehow blameless in the situations where someone doesn't like what he is doing. I am just saying it is a 2 way street.
People have gone on record as voicing their concenrs (lead animator begged Lucas to tone Jar-Jar down etc.) So the idea that Lucas is surrounded by "yes men" does not stand up to scrutiny. There is a big difference between someone voicing their concerns for the film they are working on and defying the director once the issue has been brought to his attention.
The professionals invovled with making SW films are hired to help realize Lucas' vision. Not to derail it at every opportunity. I have seen nothing to indicate that Lucas isn't approachable. In fact, people like Kasdan and Kershner claim he is "the most wonderful collaborator".
If this thread is trying to establish that Lucas is surrounded by "yes" men by polling a bunch of us fans, well you can't really do that. You would have to ask people who actually work with Lucas to make that kind of conclusion.
But is that the ONLY reason for not liking tomatoes? No. Surely, there's millions of people out there who have tried tomatoes, "given them a fair chance", and STILL genuinely dislike the taste of them.
I am just saying you can't blame the tomato for being a tomato. Tomatos are meant to appeal to tomato enthusiasts, not people who don't like tomatos.
How exactly does one go about becoming a tomato enthusaist? Is there like a fan-zine or some kind of club one has to join? How's about, they just do taste good in some people's opinions?
Actually one of the guys in my class worked for spielbergo over the summer on Catch me if you can, and told him that he didn't like Minority report.
If I was asked for my opinion, I'd give it. I'm not going to be rude, but I don't censor myself.
That's exactly the point I am making ferel.
This thread is talking about "Yes Men".
The idea of a yes man is someone who disagrees with something but goes along with it anyway.
So lets take something like "how Jar-Jar ended up in TPM". You would have to establish that crewmember X felt Jar-Jar was a bad idea, before you can say they "just went along with it" and in effect was a "yes man". In this case, Rob Coleman spoke up about how he didn't think Jar-Jar should be so over the top. BAM Yes man theory blown out of the water.
This is something tangible that happened that we can look at to assess the validity of the idea that Lucas IS surrounded by yes men. Even if every poster in this forum said they would rather keep quiet, that still sheds no light on who Lucas actually surrounds himself with. It is completely irrelevant.
Is there an instance where someone who worked with Lucas has gone on record as being a "yes man"? Actually, yes there is. Carrie Fisher said that when George asked her how she liked her hair buns in ANH, she lied and said she loved them, because she was afraid to be let go. This was of course during the classic trilogy. Does that mean Lucas is trying to surround himself with "yes men"? Not really. Does it support the possibility that some of the people Lucas employs would be too worried about being fired to speak up when they had an "issue"? It most certainly does.
But at the same time, it is illustrating the same "yes man" phenomenon happening during the production of ANH. Which kills the theory that Lucas is only now surrounded by "yes men".
"I don't like Barney the Dinosaur. Is that Barney the Dinosaur's fault? Did Barney the Dinosaur "screw up"? Or does it have more to do with the fact that I personally don't like flowery children's show hosts?"
But that arguement makes no sense when the people you are arguing against like at least 3, maybe 4 of the other SW films.
If you like Barney, but didn't like episode #217, then maybe jsut maybe there is something wrong with the episode.
I like the star trek films, but star trek 5 blows. and part 1 aint that great either.
Think about GMT, what is more likely, that people go to the theatre and pay $16 to sit and watch a movie that they want to hate, then convince themselves they hate it when in fact its a masterpiece, then go to a fan site for said movie to slam it.
Someone who is a fan of a series of films and its director gets excited then goes to the movie, and its subpar but because the person is so happy with the other 4 films in the franchise and over looks numerous technical and story errors and tells themselves that the film is great and praises it like the other films.
Which is more likely? I'm not saying htis is you specifically, or anyone for that matter, but really think about which is more likely.
I didn't like MR either. It was so hyped and it LOOKED good, and I honestly went in wanting to like it. But, I was incredibly disapointed with Speliberg's lame attempt at "humor" (i.e. the fighting couple, the sandwich) in the midst of "drama". Casting Max Von Sydo was a retarded move. I knew he was the guy all along...because he's the bad guy in EVERY movie he's EVER BEEN IN! Brilliant casting. Does Speilberg really have to stoop to "cute" product-placement? He shouldn't have to whore himself like that after the success he's had. Happy ending...puh-lease. So, if I want to kill someone, I just gotta take 'em outside the D.C. city limits so the pre-cogs don't sense me, eh? Terrible terrible movie. THE worse by Speilberg IMO.
An example of a good CONCEPT that wasn't really thought out. With MR, I think Speilberg should've asked for some more opinions/criticism too!
This tomato anaolgy is weak, to say the least, so I'm going to try a different one.
Two guys go to a diner. The cook serves them tomato soup. Both love the soup, in fact it's the best friggin' soup they've ever tasted.
They go back the next week, and again both love the soup, although this time the cook was just overseeing while a couple of other cooks did the hands on preperation of the soup. They spiced it up a little, but the two guys both still love the soup.
They again go back the next week for a third time, and again the cook has helpers making the soup, one of the two from the second visit, one new one. Guy #1 still loves the soup, but Guy #2 thinks there's too much salt this time around and doesn't really care for the soup.
They go again the next week. The cook has gone back to making the soup himself. Guy #1 is still lovin' the soup, but Guy #2 actually spits it out this time, and says - "What the heck?!? This isn't the great soup!" Guy #1 - "Hey, shut up! It's still the same cook, so it's still great!"
The next week they go back and the same scenario plays out.
So you do you blame? Is guy #2 consciously trying or choosing to not like good soup? Is Guy #1 enduring bad soup because he likes the cook? Has the cook lost his skill in the kitchen? Or are they all actually human beings with their own individual tastes? Hmmm...
I agree. That is a much better analogy.