If you got a job (on TPM) working with the creator of Star Wars would you speak up?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by hawk, Nov 3, 2002.

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  1. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Good point actually Ree Yees

    Haven't I had good points before, Hawk?!?!?


    :D
  2. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I would have loved to worked on a SW just to witness the &#^%$ing and complaining that would have occured once Emperor Lucas and Darth McCallum had left the room.
    I know that people won't talk in front of the superiors, but I'm sure lots of comments were made in private or amongst co-workers.


    Oh, yes. As we know, everybody hates working with Lucas on the prequels.

    [rolls_eyes]
  3. JediSpeedos Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2002
    star 1
    Durwood, you must've already forgotten.

    George Lucas is a money-hungry, controlling tyrant. He is responsible for the PT's downfall.

    Logic. It's all about logic.
  4. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    Oh yeah, Durwood. I'm sure you have never made a mean remark about a co-worker, fellow student, a teacher or a boss in your life...

    Can I borrow your halo sometime? ;)

    I'm sure everyone at Skywalker Ranch NEVER says anything bad about Master George or Master Rick! SUURRREEE! [face_laugh]
  5. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Your ad homenim retort is noted.

    My point is, your speculation that people bitch behind Lucas back is not proof that Lucas is unwilling to entertain feedback from his employees. In fact, the two are all but unrelated. I also reject your implication that a few bad apples shows widespread dissatisfaction.

    The facts, on the other hand, have shown that Lucas is more than willing to listen when someone presents a reasonable suggestion and will compromise even when he initially resists. Heck, you can draw this conclussion based on Gary "Sour Grapes" Kurtz's comments alone despite his constant crusade to crucify Lucas.

    At the same time, Lucas is a strong director who knows what he wants and won't monkey around when he sees too many cooks in the kitchen. I wouldn't expect any less from a director.
  6. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Well...we know for a fact that certain people didn't enjoy working with Darth McCallum and Supreme Flanellor Lucas. Like Mark Austin or what's-his-name (played Fett in ANH SE) and Gary Kurtz.
  7. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    Durwood, it's human nature. I'm sure someone got pissed over something that GL or RM has done in the films, their production, story, etc.

    I think you are naive to think that NO ONE at ANYTIME has ever felt that the production of ANY of the SW films was perfect!

    Sorry, but it's comments that the SW films are the "perfect" work environments that make me wonder if you guys believe what you are saying!

    Jeez, offhand, I can think of a few people that I've read about or made comments in the negative, over the years, about the production of the OT or GL:

    Ralph McQuarrie
    Richard Edlund
    John Dykstra
    Gary Kurtz
    David Prowse

    That is a small list, but I'm sure that the PT will have a few people making noise AFTER the films are finished!
  8. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Sorry, but it's comments that the SW films are the "perfect" work environments that make me wonder if you guys believe what you are saying!

    And who said this?
  9. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Some_Random_Nerd,

    What was ridiculous about it?

    Or is it just the idea of Yoda in an action scene that's ridiculous?


    Personally, I thought it looked really silly. I thought Dooku suggesting they should duel and Yoda pulling out his lightsaber made AOTC look like a parody. But I don't think it could have worked very well with any director. THIS is my opinion though. You may have liked it.

    I don't understand. Why would it have looked any more fake or worse than a puppet of, let's say, a little green alien with big pointy ears? Or a giant space-slug? (Either one...)

    I don' think two-head would have existed if CGI wasn't around to toy with. I was merely pointing it out as an example of how no limits on imagination can bring about pretty stupid things. Likewise, I wouldn't want a three headed elephant with purple tentacles in EpIII. With CGI, it could be done. With models or puppets it would be pretty impossible or not worth the effort. But once again if two-head was you cup of tea, then I suppose it doesn't mean much to you.

    Ree Yees,

    Yes occasionally you say something profound. ;) Would you care to discuss my last post though?



  10. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Hawk, I think there could have been a two-headed announcer in "TPM" without CGI, albeit they would have to create the effect differently. It would probably look better. The two headed announcer looks bad, looks a little like the "almost-FX" of the deleted scenes. Shoddy.
  11. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    They probably would have used a stop motion Announcer (or puppet) in long shots and actors in make-up in the close-ups.

    I dunno, Durwood. Your comments seem to make the case that GL doesn't make a mistake and that the people I listed were "bad apples", what else am I to conclude?
    True, I really don't think people are cursing and screaming at each other, but I think there have to be heated disagreements at times and that sometimes peole are blowing off steam in private or among co-workers.

    The vibe I get from some fans is...
    GL is always right and everyone may bring suggestions to him, but no one never says anything negative at all to him or about the work THEY are working TOGETHER on. Either in front of GL or in private. All of the dissenting PT comments made in the various DVD documentaries or commentaries, where ever were staged for dramatic effect.
    It is a "perfect" environment.


    I have proof...*

    Here is an example: (This is a transcript of a recording made from a hidden microphone. It's legit.*)

    Rob Coleman: George, I think Jar Jar is too much for the film, it's overdoing it. I'm a experience animator and have worked on many projects, and I think it's too much. He's beyond interacting, he's becoming a distraction.

    George Lucas: I respect your opinion. I think you are wrong, this film is MY VISION. I realize you have a list of credits, but I'm paying the money and I created him. He's fine like it is. I will cut a few small scenes for time, but he will remain in a majority of the film.

    Rob Coleman: I understand sir. I don't agree, but it is your life's work. I'll never bring it up again. Please don't fire me, it will never happen again, I promise.

    See how civilized it is. :D
    I'm totally wrong. :(

    I'm sure Rob Coleman never said anything bad about GL's judgment or anything about this exchange to anyone else, or his family, friends or even to himself when he was driving home and was stuck in traffic. :)
    I'm totally wrong. :(


    *= ;)
  12. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    Nothing like using fiction to back up your points, eh? I'm sure if someone on the other side of the fence used such a silly argument, he'd be laughed and flamed out the door.

    If people disagree with Lucas' vision while making the film, well gee, that makes the Star Wars movies just like every other movie ever made. People disagree over things. It just happens. Because you choose to dislike the prequels, Lucas has suddenly become wrong about his vision, when at the same time you point out all that he did that was right with the OT? It doesn't seem like a very consistent viewpoint.
  13. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    True, I really don't think people are cursing and screaming at each other, but I think there have to be heated disagreements at times and that sometimes peole are blowing off steam in private or among co-workers.

    So what you're saying, in complete disagreement with hawk, is that Lucas doesn't surround himself with mindless yes-men?

    As for my personal feelings on the matter, sometimes people can just be CENSORED (as these forums prove on a daily basis) so just because someone bitches up a storm doesn't necessarily mean they work in undesirable conditions. At the same, time, it has also been my experience that those who complain the loudest are also the ones least likely to offer a viable solution to the problem, assuming they even offer a solution in the first place as these personality types seem to feel it is their duty to point out problems for other people to fix.

    So the fact that Lucas probably doesn't take the "suggestions" of these negative types seriously in no way proves that he is unwilling to listen when people present reasonable suggestions.

    First, dollar signs aren't adequate to cover profanity.

    Second, using that term in reference to others here, even without mentioning specifics, violates the TOS. Do it again and you go away for 48 hours.
  14. son_of_the_tear Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    Too much to read in this thread.

    Me, myself, I am very very very against test audiences.

    Pandering to the wants of the people. As a director myself, I will never pander to that unless I am forced to.

    There are many directors who don't pander to that and I applaude them.

    You don't see serious theater directors, authors or serious musicians pandering to test audiences.

    Someone likes your work or they don't.

    I love the PT. I loved TPm more so than AOTC, I will say that. Not that I did not enjoy AOTC. Hell, I loved it. But just like in the OT, I always like the lighter more fun spiried ones best. Hence, I love ANH better than ESB and ROTJ and I love TPM more than AOTC and will probably love it more than Episode 3, but who knows. Considering that Vader and the great OB1 and Anakin duel appear in Episode 3, I might end up eating my words and have an exception.
  15. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    What was ridiculous about it?

    The Yoda duel? Well, all I can when I watched it I thought it looked rather ridiculous. I never will understand why everyone thinks that scene looks so cool. It looks rather silly to me. First few times I laughed my *** off (and rest assured, I was not laughing with Yoda). Obviously my opinion isn't shared by everyone, though I've yet to hear anyone explain why it's so cool other than "well, it just did". I guess it's a matter of taste.
  16. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    I'm not a fan of the scene either, but I got some consolation from kids "playing Yoda" in the theater, after the show.

    It reminded me that I was once a kid too, and that star wars is still mainly about fun.


    ok, so I'm a sentimental fool, sew me. 8-}
  17. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Hawk

    >>>I don' think two-head would have existed if CGI wasn't around to toy with. I was merely pointing it out as an example of how no limits on imagination can bring about pretty stupid things. Likewise, I wouldn't want a three headed elephant with purple tentacles in EpIII. With CGI, it could be done. With models or puppets it would be pretty impossible or not worth the effort.

    Well, from the pre-CGI Star Wars, we've got blue elephants, pig-faced guards, three eyed men, 2 giant slugs (one talking, one silent), a seven foot teddy bear, and a tribe of three foot teddy bears... I really don't see a connection with CGI and outlandish ideas... A two headed puppet wouldn't be a difficult thing from the team that made Yoda, for example...

    >>>But once again if two-head was you cup of tea, then I suppose it doesn't mean much to you.

    It wasn't really my cup of tea, but mainly because I don't like Greg Proops- his voice grates.

    Darth_Stryphe

    >>>>The Yoda duel? Well, all I can when I watched it I thought it looked rather ridiculous. I never will understand why everyone thinks that scene looks so cool. It looks rather silly to me. First few times I laughed my *** off (and rest assured, I was not laughing with Yoda). Obviously my opinion isn't shared by everyone, though I've yet to hear anyone explain why it's so cool other than "well, it just did". I guess it's a matter of taste.

    Well, it shows that Yoda isn't all talk, sitting in his ivory towers. He is still willing to get his hands dirty, and i can't even begin to imagine how that could have been shown better.
    His mastery over the Force is evident- there's no hint of him succumbing to the Dark Side, despite being more powerful with the Force than anything we've seen before. I mean he catches Force-lightning!!!!

    I don't remember ever laughing like I did when I saw that. For me, it was just an incredible thing to see, and I like things like Yoda fighting or the three way fight in TPM that put a big stupid grin on my face, I guess...
  18. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    I thought purple tentacle was miniaturized and squashed?

    [face_shocked]
  19. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    SomeRandomNerd,

    I think you are right about pre-CGI not stopping crazy looking creatures. However, do you not think that these creatures would not be able to ACT as over-the-top as they did without CGI? (Yoda couldn't do backflips, JJ's antics would have been very impossible and the two-head wouldn't do that stupid dance at the end of the race). In othr words, the characters wouldn't have been as animated and stood out as much.
  20. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Well, it shows that Yoda isn't all talk, sitting in his ivory towers.

    Oh, but there are so many ways of doing this without resorting to weapons.
  21. baggles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 1999
    star 4
    Punisher :

    PPPOR on your statement that McQuarrie or Edlund had negative things to say about GL.

    C'mon...Stop making up this junk
  22. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    "Back in '77, ANH had people leaving the theatre out of breath and wanting to line up for another ride. Now every time a SW movie goes for more than five minutes without a gun battle or an explosion, people are bitching about how "slow" and "boring" it is."

    That is truer than you know. If I had a penny for every time I read a review complaining about "boring" senate scenes and Jedi mumbo jumbo getting in the way of the adventure and action in the prequels (thus missing the point of the films completely) well . . . I might have enough to buy a spare copy of AOTC on DVD! :)
  23. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    That is truer than you know. If I had a penny for every time I read a review complaining about "boring" senate scenes and Jedi mumbo jumbo getting in the way of the adventure and action in the prequels (thus missing the point of the films completely) well . . . I might have enough to buy a spare copy of AOTC on DVD! :)

    Yes, but would you have enough to risk getting fired for speaking up to Lucas if you didn't like what he was doing? :D

    Just trying to get the thread back on track... ;)
  24. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    One of the arguments that I had with George about Empire was the fact that he felt in the end, he said, we could have made just as much money if the film hadn't been quite so good, and you hadn't spent so much time. And I said, "But it was worth it!"


    :)
  25. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Basically, Lucas was saying, "It wasn't necessary to go so far over budget." I can't fault him for that.
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