Amph "If You Seek His Monument, Look Around You" - The Man of Steel and Announced Sequel Thread

This is silly. They were only there to commit as much or as little genocide as was incidental to re-establishing Krypton. For which they needed Kal-El. If he had left, bearing the Codex, they would have followed. There's not a way around this.

 

They needed both: a habitable world which could be terraformed to Kryptonian norms and the Codex to repopulate it. Kal-El leaving for somewhere else on the Earth bearing the Codex would have solely been a delay in their plans, not an end to them. When Zod and friends learn the Codex is not aboard the ship that brought Cav-El to Earth, they don't pull up stakes and leave; their efforts to subdue Earth continue. The hole in your logic is your assumption that they have to have the Codex before commencing the terraforming of Earth and killing everyone on it. They don't. They can terraform the planet first and then find the Codex later; Cav-El isn't going anywhere with it. It's why they start the World Engine up even though they don't have Cav-El or his corpse in custody.

 

Don't debate him Saintheart! He likes I, Robot and has forfeited the high ground already!

 

If Kal-El had left Earth, would they have proceeded with terraforming the planet?

 

Irrelevant. Demonstrate how Kal-El would have left the planet first.

 

Yes, but...

... they had plenty of habitable planets. They said they'd gone to all of the previous colonies where the Kryptonians settled before. All they needed was the Codex. Even barring that, all they needed was any planet to terraform, since the machine was adjusting gravity, atmosphere, etc.

 

This debate commenced out of the proposition that all Cav-El needs to do to stop Zod's attempt at genocide is to go "somewhere" with the Codex.

First, it is not demonstrated that Cav-El can travel between stars or into space; his flights above Earth are low orbital at best and it is not clear how physically taxing it is to achieve spaceflight for him - or whether he's even capable of true interstellar flight. He also does not have any opportunity to use the scout ship to achieve that purpose since Zod takes possession of the vessel before Cav-El has a chance to get back to it and possibly fly it off into space.

Second, that the Kryptonians can terraform "any planet" is (a) not demonstrated within the movie's universe, since the World Engine's abilities are not fully specified onscreen and is (b) irrelevant.

The sequence of events is that Zod commences the terraforming of Earth before Superman has the chance to consider leaving Earth. Until he is on Zod's ship, he does not know the Codex is imprinted upon him and afterwards is concerned with stopping the terraforming. The plan supplied by Russ-El kills two birds with one stone in that it stops the terraforming by destroying the World Engine and has the side benefit of removing all the Kryptonians back into the Phantom Zone. Superman leaving Earth with the Codex at best would have been a delaying tactic; Jor-El's plan is far more efficient and removes the threat permanently. Remember that Cav-El does not feel Zod can be trusted, and is witness to the fact Zod believes himself superior to humans while on Zod's ship. It would have been remiss of him to leave the Earth to Zod's tender ministrations.

 

How is it "irrelevant?" He could have hijacked one of the Kryptonian vessels. Or, he could have collaborated with the US military to coordinate a launch from somewhere on the planet. Kal-El needn't even leave Earth. He could merely have committed suicide at the bottom of the Marianas Trench or gone somewhere else Zod can't find him. If they don't have the Codex, terraforming doesn't bring them any closer to their long term goal than not terraforming.

When were we discussing operational efficiency? I thought we were trying to figure out how to minimize casualties?

 

Also, note that Superman doesn't ever know where the Codex is if I remember right. Zod only learns the Codex is implanted on Kal's cells after Kal-El has escaped his ship. I don't think anyone ever tells Cav-El that the Codex is on him, or where in fact it is.

 

"Could have" is not "did". Or "reasonably possible within the film's universe and the timeframe of the crisis". I asked you to demonstrate, not make up maybes. And remember that Superman does not appear to have been instructed in the ins and outs of Krypton's technology: Jor-El's AI presence was only extant on the scout ship and briefly on Zod's ship until neutralised.

Further to that, launch what exactly? Kal-El's vessel was big enough to contain infant Kal-El, not adult Kal-El. And the scout ship was captured by Zod before anyone had the chance to use it.

You also forget that Superman doesn't have to be alive in order for them to extract the Codex from him. There is nothing to say Zod could not have found him anywhere on the Earth given the level of technology on display, particularly given Superman's invulnerability. Again, it would amount to a delay, and Superman killing himself removes any realistic obstacle to Zod's plan to recreate Krypton.

You said in effect all that Superman has to do to stop Zod from committing genocide was simply go somewhere else. That is a very operationally efficient way of avoiding casualties, but an even more operationally efficient way is to remove the threat entirely, which was Jor-Els plan.

 

Are any of them bar the main one even capable of interstellar travel? You'd get maybe a couple hours away from Earth in one of the gunships/shuttles before the Kryptonians caught up, took the Codex, and then reversed course to come back to Earth and start terraforming.

And then what? Our ships aren't really capable of interstellar travel, either.

Plus, all of this is dependent on Kal being aware that he is the Codex, which as Saintheart pointed out is not the case at any point in the film.

 

But it had to be actively neutralized by the ship's crew, and (a copy of?) the AI was carried inside the key that was ultimately used for the bomb. Rather than using it for that purpose, he could've boarded another ship, subdued the weakened crew, and set course for somewhere off-world. Similarly, I think it's pretty wild of you to call it unrealistic to suppose that, given an existential threat to the entire planet, the world's most powerful nation couldn't help coordinate a manned space flight (that doesn't have to go anywhere in particular or ever come back, or even be safe to begin with) in relatively short order?

The fact that they had to ask for help finding him in the first place, and thereafter didn't know where he was at all times?

It's not efficient if it leads to casualties that alternative plans would avoid.

 

Although looking through a wikiquote version, Zod tells Kal-El in their shared dream that the Codex was stored inside the vessel that brought Kal here. After that, Kal escapes, and Jor-El never fills him in that the Codex is inside him.

So say the military had launched, say, Kal-El's ship on that premise, it would not have stopped Zod in any event! He knew by then that Kal was the Codex, and would have continued trying to kill him. And he wouldn't have told Kal that the Codex was in him, because he would have detected the launch and realised Kal might try to hide it from him.

 

No, my predication is that Zod shows up -- asks for Kal and Lois.

They go up, Zod explains his plan to Kal. I'm saying that all Kal has to say at that point is "Let's take the Codex together and rebuild Kryptonian society and leave the earthlings in peace..." -- that either solves the problem or Zod at that point (when he's shown no inclinations yet) declares himself to be a maniac for genocide.

 

QMAOFT

 

"Had to ask for help" is exaggerating. Zod delivers a threat: "To those of you who may know of his current location: the fate of your planet rests in your hands. To Kal-El, I say this: surrender within 24 hours, or watch this world suffer the consequences."

That is not inability to find Kal-El. It is simply conservation of resources.

Again, as already discussed, that depends on Kal-El knowing that he was the Codex. Which he never does, so this line of debate, again, is irrelevant. Although if you could indicate where handy computer access points were on each of the exteriors of the Kryptonian vessels, that would be useful. Remember Kal-El is not that much more familiar with Kryptonian interfaces or technology than Lois was.

As above, we need to specify what you're launching. Space Shuttle? Zod's technology would outrun it. Kal's baby ship? Not likely to contain Kal, as discussed. Scout ship? Already in Zod's hands by the time anyone realises the Kryptonians need the Codex. Hijacked Kryptonian ship? Why bother, particularly given the logistics of hijacking a Kryptonian ship mean you have to get over its defences and its crew first? Even the scout ship's defences were enough to slow down Kal-El in his superpowered state, to say nothing of the World Engine's defences which were far more complex.

 

Leaving aside that Zod is a maniac for genocide, something that Jor-El calls him out on. Cav-El already is not inclined to trust Zod anyway from before they board the ship. He outright says there's no guarantee Zod will keep his word if he surrenders himself. And as I said, Zod has already threatened the planet with suffering if they don't give up Kal-El. Zod doesn't negotiate with Kal-El because it's not in his character to do so; he prefers straightforward action to achieve his objectives. He doesn't want to place himself at the mercy of another Kryptonian's whims; he already did that, back on Krypton, when he was subject to the Council and rebelled against them. Not the most rational of approaches to take, certainly, but who said Zod has to be rational? Who says any fictional character has to be rational?

 

In addition: why the hell would Zod really want to join up with Kal-El? I mean, really? He's a natural-born child. He's literally what Zod calls the product of heresy. It's clear Zod thinks of Kal-El as subhuman sub-Kryptonian, a "degenerative bloodline". Zod could no more countenance Kal-El's existence than he could countenance the loss of the Codex.

 

What resources? Are you seriously claiming that the most efficient way of doing things, rather than just going directly to the person you need to speak with, was to make a belligerent threat that made you a potential enemy to billions of people? And again, why wouldn't he have

That's exactly what I am remembering. Kal-El destroyed a whole ship without much difficulty, and Lois managed to hijack the computer systems in one despite having no previous exposure to the technology. Why is it suddenly so impossible for Kal-El to break into one and do the same thing?

And? If the Kryptonians caught up to Kal-El, they would have a fight in space. Away from humanity. So innocents wouldn't die. Which is the whole point.

 

Still pretty much all predicated on Kal-El knowing he's the Codex, Wock. Which he never does.

 

Try again. I thought that was bullcrap then, it's still bullcrap now.

And that version of space daddy DID forbid him from doing bullcrap like that. In fact, I think it speaks very badly of Superman if everytime he mucks up he decides to mess with space-time to fix things.

 

Incorrect. It requires that he believe himself essential to Zod's use of the codex. It is immaterial that he still believes Zod still needs him to help locate it. This has the same functional outcome as knowing the truth. Either would lead Zod to give chase, and either would allow Kal-El to predict this reaction.

 

No, you have that completely backwards. Kal only knows, from Zod, that the Codex was apparently contained inside the ship that brought him to earth. Nothing else. Kal begins to oppose Zod from the moment he learns what Zod's intent for Earth is. Kal-El is concerned with saving Earth from Zod first, above all else, because he is acting on what Zod has shown him will happen to the earth if Zod is not stopped. Kal has no basis upon which to reason that if he leaves Earth that Zod will follow him. None. As I said before, he does not know he carries the Codex inside him and Zod is highly unlikely to tell him so for that very reason.

Kal could have tried having his baby ship launched to get the Codex clear, but you seem to be forgetting that Zod would not have followed it in any event since Zod already knew my that point the Codex was not within it. And at the point where there's an opportunity to try and launch it away, the earth itself is already undergoing the process of terraforming! which is something that's kinda within Clark's jurisdiction to try and stop, especially given he has a clear method to stop it and the Kryptonians altogether as dictated to him by Jor-El. The gap in his knowledge changes the situation completely. Fume about the script if you want, but the argument "Geez Clark why dontcha just fly off to Mars, Zod'll come after you if you do" is not available on that script.

 

You don't seem to follow my point. Kal-El is aware that Zod is searching for the Codex. We know this because he sees the Kryptonians looking for it, and likely heard them asking about it. Kal-El is also aware that Zod believes he knows where the Codex is. He knows this because Zod asked him directly to reveal its location, and even his independent searches have revolved around asking other people where Kal-El "hid" it. Finally, he knows the Codex is not on his childhood ship, as Zod and Faora had ready access to that, and left it alone.

Because of the above, Kal-El has very good reason to believe that Zod thinks he knows something critical. Given that Zod flew across the entire galaxy for this information, he can reasonably assume that Zod would leave Earth again just as quickly as he came, if it was in pursuit of the thing he wanted (in Kal-El's mind, the location of the Codex, and for the viewers/Zod the truth that Kal-El is the Codex).