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If you want a subtitle for these movies, it could be "Fathers and Sons"...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Cryogenic, Jan 19, 2006.

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  1. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    So said Ian McDiarmid in a web documentary for Episode III: Revenge of the Sith.

    At first, I sort of dismissed what he said as a simplified consideration of Anakin/Palpatine and Vader/Luke - but then I realised there's more to it than that. It was actually a comment made elsewhere on the net that I happened to read that changed my perspective. Paraphrasing, this other person said that while they loved the Lord of the Rings trilogy and latest King Kong movie, they felt that Jackson's work wasn't as focused as it lacked a central theme inherent to Lucas' work. A lightbulb went off: I thought back to Ian McDiarmid's comment and suddenly grasped what he really meant - the idea of fathers and sons is present in EVERY Star Wars movie at a significant level. Here we go...

    Episode I: Anakin has no biological father. Qui Gon becomes his surrogate father. Qui Gon is killed, and after a promise exchanged between Qui Gon and his eldest "son", Anakin is taken under the wing of his reluctant older "brother".

    Episode II: Anakin claims that Obi Wan is "like a father to me" - but it's clear they're more like bickering brothers. Palpatine has started to move in to fill this void. Anakin also learns he has a step father but never stops to get to know him.

    Episode III: Anakin and Obi Wan's brotherly relationship is at its peak now (and soon to hit its valley). Palpatine has also solidified his relationship with Anakin and even refers to him as his "son". In a parallel to the following installment, Palpatine even puts his arm around Anakin and walks slowly forward, as if guiding him, in a fatherly manner. Anakin saves the life of Palpatine, does his bidding and betrays Obi Wan. Obi Wan leaves Anakin to die. Anakin's "father" rescues him and re-animates him as a terrible hybrid of man and machine.

    Episode IV: Luke's surrogate father, and his real father's surrogate brother, tells him that his real father was "betrayed and murdered" by Darth Vader. Obi Wan gives Luke his real father's old lightsabre and metaphorically "passes down" knowledge and values from one generation to the next. Luke watches helplessly as his surrogate father is struck down by Vader. Luke mourns his surrogate father's passing.

    Episode V: Luke's real father is aggressively pursuing the Rebels and his own son across the galaxy. Referring to Anakin, Yoda tells Luke that "a powerful Jedi was he". Vader consults with his surrogate father and they decide that it might be possible to turn Luke. Lashing out on impulse, Luke decapitates an "echo" of his own psyche and and sees his own face within the helmet of Vader. When Luke faces Vader at the close of the film, Vader tells him that "I am your father!".

    Episode VI: Luke tells his real father that he can "feel the good within you". In a tense lightsabre duel with his father, Luke almost kills him and puts away his sabre, resigned to his fate. Luke's surrogate grandfather attempts to kill his mutant offspring and his real father steps in to save him. The father has saved the son and the son has saved the father.

    So, really, the Star Wars saga is all about one very dysfunctional family and its legacy. There are more people involved in the Father/Son paradigm than just Anakin and Luke. This gives the saga a greater import and resonance. Considering Lucas' struggles with his own father to break away and do his own thing, not to mention his belief in children and education, Star Wars is a thoughtful and powerful exploration of how values and experiences are passed down and shape individuals and the world we live in.
     
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  2. DarthMyBoy

    DarthMyBoy Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 29, 2003
    I've always thought the best subtitle would be "Anakin's Story" but "Fathers and Sons" is defnitiley right up there after that

    Great Job on that
     
  3. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    Thanks.

    Even for those that dislike the prequels, I think the Father/Son paradigm gives them something meaningful and juicy to latch onto. Although Lucas has changed the tone and feel of Star Wars over the years, broadening and expanding his own horizons and that of his creation, I think the Father/Son paradigm, or some manifestation of it, has been there from the start: it's the glue that holds everything together. But that analogy is slightly off: the paradigm isn't static; it's a little different in each of the six films and flows dynamically between neighbouring chapters, between non-neighbouring chapters and in both directions. Star Wars might not be entirely consistent - but it is relatively coherent and unified. Is there another work out there as sprawling and complex but as tight and intimate as this?
     
  4. DARTHIRONCLAD

    DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 28, 2005
    Lucas said this very thing about SW in the February 2005 issue of Vanity Fair: "I do see it, tonality-wise, as two trilogies. But they do, together, form one epic of fathers and sons."

    If you have never read this article I suggest you read it, Cryogenic. It's very good, but the author of the article is obviously not a Star Wars fan because he says that there hasn't been a wookie in a Star Wars movie since 1983 when referring to ROTS. Which is false because there were wookies in TPM.

    This is one of my favorite Lucas quotes from the article:
    "I couldn't have that same tonality in the father's trilogy that I did in the children's trilogy," Lucas says. "The thing about children is, they're exuberant, they're naive. You know, they're funny. But fathers, especially fathers going down the wrong path--it's a much more somber reality."

    This is another one:
    "The interesting thing about Star Wars--and I didn't ever really push this very far, because it's not really that important--but there's a lot going on there that most people haven't come to grips with yet. But when they do, they will find it's a much more intricately made clock than most people would imagine."

    I think the "intricately made clock" he's referring to is how Anakin takes his first step into the darkness in AOTC and takes his first step back to the light in TESB. Anakin starts having visions of his mother kidnapped by the Tuskens that begin his turn to the dark side and Vader must have had visions of his son kidnapped by the wampas that will start his turn back to the light side. The reason I say that Vader must have had visions of Luke on Hoth is because as soon as Vader sees an image of Hoth, he knows that Skywalker is there.
    Also with this clock as he calls it, notice as soon as Yoda and Mace send Obi-Wan after Jango then Anakin has the worst nightmare yet about his mother and that scene is followed by an image of beams of sunlight coming through the clouds and Anakin is meditating.
    Now notice how as soon as Boba starts tracking Han, then Luke has the vision of his friends suffer. Which will lead Luke to Bespin and after Vader confronts his son then Vader's inner conflict begins. The conflict that Luke refers to in ROTJ.


     
  5. DarthPoppy

    DarthPoppy Jedi Master star 4

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    May 31, 2005
    I think this is an allusion to a famous Russian novel of the 19th century, by Turgeniev, called, Fathers and Sons. As I haven't read it, I cannot elaborate, but as that title already exists, I am sure there is more to it.
     
  6. i_dont_know

    i_dont_know Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 6, 2005
    Nice thoughts Cryo

    I made a (slightly) similar observation that each Episode has a character that can be seen as a father figure, or the "Master" of the chapter.
    TPM it is obviously Qui-Gon. AotC, it would be Obi-Wan. ROTS it is easily Sidious.
    In ANH it is Obi-Wan - his second chance at being a succesful mentor.
    In ESB it's Yoda, though you could argue for ANH and ESB it is actually Luke's perception of his father that he is following, which changes to Vader when he learns the truth.
    In Return of the Jedi you could argue that Luke is the Master.
     
  7. darth_frared

    darth_frared Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 24, 2005
    additionally you have the juxtaposition of jango and boba fett in episode II. i mean, their relationship is in juxtaposition to existing father-son-relations.

    it is true the skywalkers are a dysfunctional family. the saga for me isn't so much a reflection of family themes, though, it is more about a meditation of the personal getting inertwined with the political.

    maybe it would be interesting to write about how the portrayal of this one family throughout the saga is still a positive look on family values and compassion. coz i think it is. or maybe it would be interesting to look at the role of the women in the skywalker family.. just throwing that out there.
     
  8. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 24, 2000
    Obi-Wan is the father figure to Anakin. Only after Anakin becomes a Jedi Knight, and their relationship matures, can it be described as brothers. Obi-Wan raises him from childhood to adulthood. If that doesn't make him a father, I don't know what would. He was not an "older brother" from the outset, whatver their mutual relationship to Qui-Gon was. If there's anyone that Anakin can look up to as a father, who is truly deserving of it, and is a genuine positive role model, it's Obi-Wan.

    Anakin's lack of a biological father is what places him at the center of a tug-of-war between two father-like figures. And then ultimately he has to begin acting like one himself.
     
  9. ShrunkenJedi

    ShrunkenJedi Jedi Knight star 5

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    Apr 26, 2003
    This is a good point. And good addition of Jango and Boba! Very nice paradigm to see this from. :)

    Up until episode VI Anakin has been acting like a child... he never sees himself as responsible for what he's doing, it's all the fault of his various father figures. In episode III, he nearly gets that opportunity and seems interested in taking it up-- but instead of taking responsibility, again, like a true adult and father, he acts like a child and does what his own 'father', Palpatine, asks, and is deprived of the opportunity to become a fully realized adult and father. He is almost an adult-- he is a Council Member, but not a Master; almost ready to take on Palpatine, but not quite; almost a father, but not quite. Until he takes responsibility in episode VI and saves his son, and allows self-determination for the Empire he helped create instead of dictatorship.

    I would also add that there is also the saga of mothers and daughters, mothers and sons and fathers and daughters. With Shmi and Anakin, Padme and Leia, Anakin and Leia... these relationships are incredibly key. So the more appropriate name for this paradigm of looking at Star Wars might be 'Parents and Children'.
     
  10. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 24, 2000
    Lucas is often portrayed as a bleeding-heart liberal. Yet at the heart of his stories is a message that conservatives so often cling onto: the importance of a father in a child's life. Just goes to show that a man's public politics, and his parental style, are two different things.
     
  11. Billy_Dee_Binks

    Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 29, 2002
    I'd say it's about friendship, family, heroism, seduction, mythology and fun. :cool:
     
  12. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

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    May 28, 2005
    While I would also view it primarily a saga about fathers and sons, in part it is also a saga about masters and "proteges" in a pretty wide sense. There are a lot of master and protege relationships in the saga.

    First, of course we have masters and apprentices with the Jedi as well as the Sith.
    Then we have masters and servants, when it comes to droids and their owners - 3PO and other protocoll droids always refer to their owners as "masters". And last but not least, we have masters and slaves - the relationship between Anakin and Watto, and later Anakin and Palpatine. Of course in the OT we have Luke as an apprentice to Obi and later Yoda, and a master to 3PO and R2.

    It is interesting that Anakin seems to be the only one who has been through all of these relationships. First he was a slave to Watto and a master to 3PO. Then he was an apprentice to Obi-Wan, and later Palpatine, with the droids continuing not to be his property, but his servants. And at last, he ended up a slave to Palpatine and a "master" to - whom? No-one at all? Ironic, if you think that in ANH he says to Obi-Wan "now I am the master" - when in fact he was still apprenticed to Palpatine and for the first time was no longer a master to anyone at all.





     
  13. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    Great thoughts, everyone!

    I particularly liked the one about Jango and Boba and Anakin himself becoming a father. Of course! How could I miss those two?

    ...which Obi Wan throws right back in his face: "Only a master of evil, Darth". In a metaphorical sense, you could also say he was a servant to his own emotions. Phrases like "I have no choice", "Being rational is something I know I cannot do" and "I will do anything you ask", indicate that Anakin was letting his own feelings be the master of his body, mind and soul. That's all well and good - but it's only when he paid attention to the right kind of feelings at the end of ROTJ and acted compassionately that he truly became free.

     
  14. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

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    May 28, 2005
    Question is if he even was a "master of evil", or still it's servant.
    If one takes the teachings of Darth Plagueis as a point of reference, about being a Sith (a "master of evil" if you will):

    "You must begin by gaining power over yourself; then another; then a group, an order, a world, a species, a group of species... finally, the Galaxy itself."

    It seems he did a bit better with the part about gaining power over himself in the OT than in the PT. But for the rest - he still was an enforcer with no real power over others; essentially he could only act within the discretion granted to him by Palpatine.
     
  15. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    I agree with that. Great point! Your philosophical mind comes through again, mandragora. Indeed you are powerful!

    I think we should just interpret Obi Wan's statement as arising from his personal feelings of despondency. Anakin turned his back on the Jedi Order and helped destroy everything that Obi Wan held dear. That's going to sting. But one thing about his remark bothers me. If he's meant to have been communing with Qui Gon and learnt the compassion necessary to retain consciousness after death, then why would he call anyone "evil" - least of all his former friend and companion? I don't think the saga holds up too well on this point. I guess we have to imagine that Obi Wan let go of everything in those last few seconds facing Vader. But, from the interplay between the two, and the almost-cocky glance Obi Wan gives as he looks at Luke before "surrendering", it seems that he hasn't really purged himself of his negative feelings towards Anakin - he's merely calming his mind and checking out of Hotel Reality having paid half his bill. That aint on! Qui Gon never mentions "evil" or the "Dark Side" or anything of that nature in TPM. Maybe because he doesn't get chance - or maybe because he doesn't think in such divisive terms. That's another reason to admire him and understand what true compassion means. By comparison, Obi Wan's a fraud.
     
  16. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

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    May 28, 2005
    I agree. Probably he hasn't forgiven himself for having failed in Anakin's training, either. Meeting Vader there in that suit must have been a most, well, inconvenient and pictographic reminder of this failure. Calling him evil might make it easier for Obi-Wan to deal with it. But then again, maybe we're constructing logic where there isn't any; the possibility can't be excluded that by the time ANH was shot, Vader wasn't even conceived as being the turned Anakin.

    Well, only a Sith deals in absolutes, no, Obi? I've always had my problems with Obi-Wan, mostly because of his lies in the OT and his arrogant behaviour towards Anakin in TPM and AOTC. Of course all of this can be rationalized and justified but the fact remains that I didn't like it then and still don't like it now. If it weren't for his rather easy-going use of mind tricks to achieve his ends, I'd say the ideal Jedi was Qui-Gon Jinn.
     
  17. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    I am 100% convinced that this is the case.

    Guinness played the role to absolute perfection. His performance in ANH is the pinaccle of acting in a fantasy film that all other actors should aspire to. Sir Alec Guinness will have my eternal respect for his performance in Star Wars - and elsewhere. He was a magnificent actor.

    Unfortunately, and fortunately, Lucas changed his concept of Star Wars over time and turned Obi Wan into a pathological liar and manipulative bastard. I try to reconcile the films as best I can - but there are glaring discrepancies that won't go away, and unless I can find adequate solutions in my imagination, never will.

    Yes.

    Obi Wan was always the model Jedi when there was just "Star Wars". But, when Lucas decided to make Vader Luke's father and had to fathom an explanation for Obi Wan to give to absolve himself, the writing was on the wall (no pun intended). Finally, when Lucas made TPM and showed us Qui Gon, Obi Wan was surpassed.

    Qui Gon's use of the mind trick is troublesome. If he was truly honourable and trust worthy, he probably wouldn't do that. Emphasis on "probably". It's those little shades of grey, threaded to an otherwise perfectly white fabric, that make Qui Gon the curious creature he is. Have you ever visited this website, mandragora? http://www.qui-gonline.org/ Such a brilliant site! Maybe you should put a similar one together for Palpatine!
     
  18. ObiWan506

    ObiWan506 Former Head Admin star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2003
    True. However I don't necessarily view that as bad. In fact, perhaps it strengthens the Obi-Wan character into that 'Father figure' we all talk about. Obi-Wan by default seems to already care very greatly for Luke. He's willing to avoid pain by either side-stepping the questions or telling Luke a lie. Obi-Wan knew full well that Luke would eventually find out, but he also knew what needed to be done in the moment. It's a testament to the character to know that he is both sensitive and sympathetic to Luke's situation.
     
  19. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 28, 2005
    Thank you for the link - I'll check it out.
    As to the Palpatine, there are a few good sites, especially
    http://domuspublica.net/index.php/Something%20Wicked%20This%20Way%20Comes
    and http://www.mellody.co.za/michaela/palpatine/frame.htm
    The character and his role in the Saga is still giving me headaches; I feel in no way qualified to set a website on him.
    btw., I've written an answer for you in the hidden meanings thread - maybe you have an idea how he could know about Padme's death as early as he did?
     
  20. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    I think that can be read both ways.

    But yes - that is certainly one of the ways it can be read. I still like Obi Wan's fatherly bond with Luke. But it has much more of a bitter taste to it now (good and bad).

    Thanks for the links! I shall devour that material. I love this stuff. I came across a really cool website earlier today. It's basically this: Darth Vader's Journal. Can you imagine it? It's written in a semi-serious, semi-comical fashion and charts his life and concerns between Episodes IV and VI. It ends with a very poignant chapter about him going to face his destiny. It's a brilliant little work. But I'm going to create a whole other thread about that one.

    Yes... I shall check out your comments in the hidden meanings thread. I don't have an immediate explanation for why Palpatine kenw of Padme's death. Maybe he didn't. Maybe the idea was to test the waters and see how his freshly-minted cyborg responded (he could always retract his claim or kill her off if need be later). Anyway, checking thread...
     
  21. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

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    May 28, 2005
    I suspect that this should be it: http://darthside.blogspot.com/
    It's very well done, the guy has done his homework on Darth Vader. There's hardly anything I find out of character for Vader, which is a rare thing in fan fiction. I found the relationships between Vader/Jerjerrod and Vader/Sidious very well worked out. I think the part about Vader increasingly feeling expendable fits very well with the growing resignation in Vader during ROTJ.
     
  22. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    That's the one!

    It's a work of art.

    Everyone should read it.
     
  23. Darth_Walters

    Darth_Walters Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2006
    True it could. I think soo because it all revovles around luke and anikan
     
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