Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. JediFreac Force Ghost

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    I don't pity them, not in the sense that I mighty pity groups that have been traditionally marginalized.

    This is why: I don't see diversity as a zero sum game. There's like what, at least 50+ different versions of a straight Peter Parker? We aren't losing straight Peter Parker. Rather, we are all gaining a gay Peter Parker. Same with Nick Fury, who remains white in the main Marvel timeline; we didn't lose him, we just gained another version of him. Straight white dudes will always have "the original deal" anyway. It's just that in addition to that, we will also have a different version, too. They aren't "losing" nearly as much as everyone else is "gaining."
  2. TrakNar Force Ghost

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    Over the years, I've practically mastered the art of assassinating my inner purist. Nowadays, I really don't give much of a crap on how a character is portrayed, so long as the core personality of that character isn't drastically altered. For example, I prefer my Big Blue Boy Scout Superman over a grim-and-gritty interpretation. Superman was a symbol of hope and peace, and when we saw Big Blue, we knew we were in good hands. He may not be able to be everywhere at once, but gosh darnit, he tried! He was childhood wish fulfillment personified.
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  3. krtmd Force Ghost

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    Sep 5, 2012
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    Not trying to change the subject, but I was wondering what folks think of the "Skip Ender's Game" protest. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/07/orson-scott-card-gay-protest_n_3558189.html

    While I think Card's previous public statements about LGBT rights and marriage equality are deplorable, I'm not sure that not attending the film hurts Card in a way that changes his mind. Obviously, it does draw attention to his attitude.

    Or perhaps I'm just trying to rationalize seeing the film when it comes out - since my kids LOVED the book and can hardly wait.
  4. themetresgained Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 23, 2013
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    it's not about changing his mind so much as it is about not giving him the media platform a successful film will generate/any financial gains he might have from its success.
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  5. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    I have to admit I'm an Ender fan, and ultimately, a good story is a good story--and a good movie is the work of hundreds of people who don't deserve to be punished because of what the guy who wrote the book thirty years ago thinks. At the end of the day, Card's attitude is its own worst enemy, and the higher a profile the movie gives him, the more he'll have to answer for it.
  6. krtmd Force Ghost

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    I think it's probably too late to hurt Card in the pocketbook. At least seriously.

    I think this is probably true. He's certainly being called on to defend his position now. Although he's not backtracking necessarily, he does admit the latest Supreme Court ruling basically leaves his position a moot point.

    And I've seen movies that I've enjoyed while simultaneously finding the creators, um, less than desirable people. Roman Polanski and Woody Allen both come to mind.
  7. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    I got turned on to Ender's Game by the Marvel comic adaptation, and if nothing else, I have to say I was pretty impressed with its multiculturality--though how much of that comes from the original novel (or will be present in the movie) I couldn't say. I know Mazer Rackham at least is intended to be nonwhite, yet played by Ben Kingsley in the movie--that really seems to be his thing, doesn't it?
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Jul 11, 2013
  8. Robimus Force Ghost

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    Jul 6, 2007
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    I don't want to delve into this too far, but lets just say that just because someone doesn't agree with your take of the sitution that doesn't mean they are looking at the situation with an ignorant point of view that invovles somesort of stereotype of how person x is suppost to look.

    Best I can do for that show is give it an A+ for intent and a D+ for execution when it comes to the question of diversity. I'm not saying it isn't a good show, or that one can't view it the way it is apparently intended from a diversity standpoint because a lot of people have and do, but its poster children(main characters) leave something to be desired for me. I do think there was some level of ambiguity being aimed for to appeal to western audiences.
  9. Darth_Arapsis Jedi Knight

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    May 21, 2013
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    A man can't turn down a good role.
  10. Havac Former Moderator

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    The diversity is original to the book.

    As for Kingsley, he isn't Maori like Rackham, but he is nonwhite -- his birth name is Krishna Pandit Bhanji. He's half Indian, half British.
  11. krtmd Force Ghost

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    Sep 5, 2012
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    Last edited by krtmd, Jul 11, 2013
  12. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

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    That's nice of Card to say, but I'll start believing him when his actions reflect that. Last I checked he's still a NOM member and thinks that gays should be imprisoned, so...

    And that's the difference between seeing a movie that benefits Card versus one that benefits Polanski or Woody Allen. The latter two don't use their proceeds from the film to promote campaigns to support statutory rape or sleeping with stepdaughters, or sit on the leadership of groups that explicitly call for that. Card however does use his proceeds to to try to push his odious personal faults onto society at large.




    Anyway, not to bring this topic back into the realm of Star Wars, but I was re-reading Mara Jade: By the Emperor's Hand and...uh, how to put this delicately...the Black Nebula and their (mono-racial) members reallllly seem like the artist was influenced by, shall we say, typical 90s depictions of "urban" "gangsters". It's pretty heavy, to the point I can't believe it didn't stick out for me before and now it's really hard to avoid it.
  13. Mechalich Force Ghost

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    Feb 2, 2010
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    Will not seeing the movie actually deprive Card of any money? It is my understanding that novel rights are generally optioned as a lump sum, and that unless something unusual is in the contract, any money Card will have made from this movie deal is already in his pocket. So the only real effect of making the movie tank would be to prevent the production of a sequel - which, honestly, isn't all that likely anyway, the day Hollywood can turn Speaker for the Dead into a viable tentpole film is a long ways off.
  14. jSarek VIP

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    If there's enough money in it, they will make a sequel, even if they have to pass on Speaker for the Dead for Ender's Game II: Electric Bugaloo.

    Anyway, this is an author nicely refuting a particularly obnoxious critic of his novel's black female pirate.
  15. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Well, according to Lionsgate, the studio producing the Ender's Game film:
    * "As proud longtime supporters of the LGBT community, champions of films ranging from Gods and Monsters to The Perks of Being a Wallflower and a company that is proud to have recognized same-sex unions and domestic partnerships within its employee benefits policies for many years, we obviously do not agree with the personal views of Orson Scott Card and those of the National Organization for Marriage."

    * "The simple fact is that neither the underlying book nor the film itself reflect these views in any way, shape or form. On the contrary, the film not only transports viewers to an entertaining and action-filled world, but it does so with positive and inspiring characters who ultimately deliver an ennobling and life-affirming message."

    They're also apparently pledging to hold a benefit premiere for the movie in support of LGBT causes. So I guess that's...something. [face_dunno]
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  16. krtmd Force Ghost

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    Sometimes you have to just separate the art from the artist. JMO, obviously.
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  17. JediFreac Force Ghost

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    I almost snorted my drink out when I read this. They do know the book is about
    spoilers (open)
    a kid being tricked into committing genocide
    , right?

    So I'm seeing Orson Scott Card and his fans saying it's too bad people aren't showing him "tolerance"...or that people who are boycotting Ender's Game are "just as intolerant." I'm also seeing people talk about how OSC has the right to freedom of speech, etc. I know OSC and Lionsgate feel kind of deprived right now, but jeez. Lionsgate throwing a LGBT gala doesn't erase the hurt people experienced from his views.

    Regardless-- OSC is entitled to his opinion, but he isn't entitled to people's positive regard, or money.

    Even if his views have nothing to do with the film or book, people can still not want to give him or the studio supporting him money. Just like the deliciousness of Paula Deen's food is not "reflective of her racist views (and actions) in any way shape or form," but I still don't feel obligated to buy her cookware.
    Last edited by JediFreac, Jul 15, 2013
  18. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 4, 2012
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    Bigots calling wanting to be tolerated is effing rich. I've seen a Transformers comparison used elsewhere, and I think it's pretty apt. Skip to 2:16.



    It's also pretty telling that they think it's simply a general lack of tolerance that's the problem, and it never occurs to them people don't like to tolerate bigotry for a pretty good reason.
    Last edited by Reveen, Jul 15, 2013
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  19. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    If you think I'm watching seven minutes of Transformers right now in order to understand what you're saying, you are sorely mistaken. :p
  20. JediFreac Force Ghost

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    It's also pretty telling that they think it's simply a general lack of tolerance that's the problem, and it never occurs to them people don't like to tolerate bigotry for a pretty good reason.[/quote]

    Oh gosh, I just watched Optimus Prime die. Feels like reading Star By Star all over again. Sort of.

    "You who was without mercy...now beg for it?" ----> But to me, it's not that, even. I mean, Orson Scott Card is allowed to ask for something as simple as "tolerance" regardless of whether or not he supports tolerating other people. It's more that getting movie ticket money/box office success isn't "tolerance"--it's asking people to (financially) support you. And the level of "intolerance" fans are showing him is no where as cruel as the intolerance he has shown others. OSC being shunned by moviegoers for his individual opinion is not the same as OSC advocating for systemic discrimination, so why even go there? Meh.
    Last edited by JediFreac, Jul 15, 2013
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  21. jedimaster203 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
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    Ender's Game is the only OSC novel I've read, or am interested in reading. I liked it, but I felt like after that, the story is done. Boycotting the movie doesn't hurt OSC, it hurts the studio. If the studio doesn't make money, we won't see more big budget sci-fi novel adaptations. OSC already made his money, he'll be laughing all the way to the bank.

    Also, on the subject of diversity, Omad Kaeg from Crucible is supposed to have a middle eastern look, right? Even the name Omad phonetically sounds like "Ahmad". I'm not crazy for picturing him that way, right?
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  22. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    For posterity: I was a guest on Tosche Station Radio this evening, and this thread was one of the primary topics.
  23. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

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    Sep 7, 2012
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    1) I honestly never got the appeal of Ender's Game, at least after I was no longer an ostracized teen nerd in middle school. But as tepid as my opinion of Ender's Game is,the following books are way worse, including a huge storyline about the sanctity of fetuses and an entire book about the war on Christmas.
    2) If the movie fails due to the boycott, which it almost certainly won't, it'll definitely hurt Card since it will be widely known his own intolerance tanked his own pet project, it will help ensure he doesn't make out from getting any more of his works adapted, and it will probably see a slump in his other sales, including the inevitable movie-tie-in editions of Ender's Game.
    3) If this fails it will in no way be the end of big-budget movie adaptations, at least any more than they're already rare. If anything it will ensure that studios think twice before lining the pockets of authors whose views are so tremendously offensive the public won't want to see them.
  24. jedimaster203 Force Ghost

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    Dec 19, 1999
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    1) Agreed. Its not the greatest, but it certainly isn't bad. There are some interesting things...but like I said, I was never interested in anything after EG.
    2) It might hurt Card's future earning potential, but I doubt that any of his other crap is up for film adaptation anytime soon. I contend that people that like OSC are going to continue to like OSC, even after a boycott.
    3) It certainly won't be the end to big movie adaptations, but it will likely have an affect on what gets picked up. We'll see more Twilights and less Ender's Games...which I consider a bad thing, no matter what your politics are. Also, John Scalzi acknowledges that a failure of Ender's Game would likely affect the movie adaptation to Old Man's War getting greenlit. http://whatever.scalzi.com/2013/07/17/boycotts-creators-and-me/

    My point is that a successful boycott is probably going to hurt sci-fi in general more than it will OSC. Note that I said "success boycott", because I don't think this is going to be one of those cases. I personally don't agree with OSC's politics, but I'll likely see the movie.
  25. krtmd Force Ghost

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    Sep 5, 2012
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    Well, I can say it's opened an interesting dialogue in my house with my big kids who are 13 and 11 and enjoyed the book. They want to see the movie. We've talked about the politics of marriage equality and what OSC has said. We live in a very liberal community, and many of their friends have lesbian and gay parents, so what OSC says has meaning to them, even if it doesn't affect our lives personally. Maryland passed marriage equality by referendum in the last election, and they were proud of that. Heck, we no longer eat at our local Chick Fil-A because of that company's outspoken ownership on this very issue.

    I'm sure we'll still see the movie, and continue to have the dialogue about artists and art - and how personal politics plays into all of that, along with exercising the power of the dollar.
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