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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
  2. krtmd

    krtmd Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 5, 2012
    Hey, she chose my spelling for her new name. =D=
     
  3. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    Just a note that Mechalich's first guest piece is up on Eleven-ThirtyEight, wherein he'll be doing extensive demographic analysis of the GFFA. I imagine it'll be very useful going forward.

    PS, Mechalich, you're mini-blowing up on Twitter. Great job.
     
  4. Skaddix

    Skaddix Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 3, 2012
    Very Useful Indeed
     
  5. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 6, 2007
    I'm not completely sure what your article is trying to tell us. For instance your focus is on named characters, but I don't think that actually gives us much of a representation of galactic species population numbers - only what species are appearing in the stories more. For instance the Essential Atlas is still Star Wars EU, it gives us population numbers like 4 billion Kaleesh, 45 million Wookiees, 10 million Noghri, 500 million Gamorreans, 27 billion Mon Cals, 780 billion humans on Coruscant alone, so on.

    We know that humans are the predominate species in the galaxy because canon material like The Essential Atlas has told us that. So in that way the EU isn't trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the reader. Now you may personally feel that more aliens should be represented, that aliens should be more abundant than humans - but the perception that canonical evidence from the EU has presented that aliens are as common as humans is kinda false.

    Essentially yes, if it isn't even more heavy than equal. Why is it this way? Because the canonical numbers given work out this way. Should it be this way? Thats another discussion. Theoretically aliens could out number the humans in the galaxy but the numerical evidence we have been given doesn't back that theory. It is not as if LFL published the Atlas and showed there being a massive population of unseen aliens that tips the balance - In fact canon sources specifically say that we should be seeing humans way more than Twileks, or Hutts, or Kaleesh - just based on canonical population numbers alone.
     
  6. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    He says pretty much that exact thing near the end of the article. This piece is simply about what the known data suggests, not about making any further assumptions one way or the other. He even goes so far as to say that the wook data is within the realm of what he'd have expected anyway.

    Nothing in the article is contrary to that; he's simply investigating whether the existing character base lines up with that--and the answer thus far, IMO, is a resounding "sorta".

    Allow me to quote literally the next sentence after the part you quoted here:
    That is, more or less, in agreement with you. I'm sure plenty of debate can be extracted from this series of articles as it progresses, but I can't help but feel like you're jumping the gun. :p
     
  7. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 6, 2007
    Like I say, I'm not sure what the point of the article is - it talks about perceptions, but who's perceptions is it talking about?

    Maybe given more time I will see more of a sense of direction from this series or articles.
     
  8. Mechalich

    Mechalich Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 2, 2010
    Which is kind of funny, since I don't have twitter...

    Oh, and thanks for the title though, I like it.

    This article, and the series in general, is concerned with the crossover between in-universe and out-of-universe distribution issues - ie. the difference between what meta-sources such as the Essential Atlas tell us is there and what the collected works of the universe show us to be present. This initial article is foundational, it is largely a presentation of what is there.

    For example, the big revelation to me, when I put this together, was how often Rodians showed up. I don't think many people would have intuitively guessed that Rodians appear twice as often in Star Wars as Zabraks, but that turned out to be true. That's what I mean when I talk about quantitative data challenging assumptions.

    The focus on 'named characters' is essential because that is the only thing that can be counted. It's worth noting that Wookiiepedia tries to name everything, so there's plenty of entries similar to 'Unidentified Weequay Guard (Planet X)' from any number of TCW episodes, and every character who isn't a random mob in TOR is named as an individual (which is why TOR has 5000 characters, which may quite possibly be as many characters as who appear in all of the novels combined).
     
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  9. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999

    I think this thread has gone into great length on the perceptions people tend to have, for better or worse, and Mech's often been part of that conversation. I see today's piece as a palate cleanser--just to get everyone on the same page.
     
  10. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 6, 2007
    I guess I'm just surprised that there were people not on that page.

    And that explains why I can't find Mech's twitter. :p
     
  11. Likewater

    Likewater Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 31, 2009
    Are droids people?

    no.

    Can some droids be sapient? if well programmed enough possibly.

    Even in Star Trek its not cut and dry.

    To paraphrase Soleta from Star Trek: New Frontier when the Doctor (From Star Trek: Voyager) rubbed her the wrong way, "My friend recently died, and she is dead, no back up storage, no recreation can bring her back, she cant pop back into my life with a "please state the nature of the medical emergency".


    Hell even in the new Books, there is a new Data, but even he realizes he is not the same data who died, while he has the old data's memories (Stored in B4) and Soongs newest body he doesn't ask or accept his old commission (though star fleet technically has him on reserve status)

    He has different points of view, his motivations have changed, while retaining his a similar personalities due to his memories.
     
    Gamiel likes this.
  12. cthugha

    cthugha Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 24, 2010
    Mechalich's article made me think again... why did they decide to clone humans, of all species, for the Clone Wars? I'm sure some other species would have made better warriors, if only because you don't have to manufacture tons of armor to slap on them. Has this ever been addressed in-universe?
     
  13. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 23, 2004

    Because Jango won the competition Dooku hosted to find the best Bounty Hunter in the galaxy and thus in his opinion was the best Clone host. Dooku being something of a racist was likely another reason.
     
  14. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 29, 2005
    The Kaminoans didn't want to spring for the grooming costs created by an army of Wookiees.
     
  15. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    [​IMG]

    But seriously, several reasons, probably. Humans were so goddamned pervasive that the Kaminoans probably had way more experience futzing with their genomes compared to other species--if they'd picked Wookiees, say, they might not have been able to speed up the lifespan properly, or make them docile enough, or any of a hundred things.

    Humans are the little black dress of cloning--they go with anything.
     
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  16. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 23, 2004

    Didn’t the Darth Plaegius novel mention they originally wanted to use Yinchorri, but could not get it to work? Though them wanting to be really careful about it, also makes sense after the Lugubraa mess.
     
    Summer Dreamer likes this.
  17. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    Sounds familiar.
     
  18. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 19, 2007
    And let's not even get started on the smell. With all that rain, would you want your planet smelling like several million wet Wookiees all the time?
     
  19. Mechalich

    Mechalich Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 2, 2010
    Well, with humans representing 42-50% of the galaxy as a whole, and a considerably higher proportion of the Republic's loyalist faction it makes both political, and logistical sense to clone a human. Politically because the humans are always going to be more comfortable being protected by an army of humans rather than an army of aliens, and logistically because if you have to supplement the clone forces with regular conscripts, human clones and natural born humans can use all the same gear without any need for major modifications.
     
    Robimus likes this.
  20. Trisdin Gheer

    Trisdin Gheer Jedi Master star 2

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    Jun 18, 2013
    Yeah, DP covered the humans-as-clones thing.
     
  21. Reveen

    Reveen Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 4, 2012
    Nobody really likes humans, not even other humans. So they'd be the easiest to swallow as a slave army genetically engineered to die for the Republic.

    Actually, in seriousness. That could be the rationale, humans are more spread out and aren't as tightly knit than a lot of other species. If they sent waves and waves of a marginalized species like the weequays and rodians to die on the front lines would cheese off a lot of rodians and weequays. The aliens in the galaxy would see a human dominated government using aliens as their janissaries, and might come running into the arms of the seperatists.

    But would humans from Corellia give a crap about a ton of non-Corellian humans dying?
     
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  22. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    You're correct. I think that would've made the Jedi more than a little suspicious, though, considering the Yinchorri's Jedi-killing abilities. So Fett had killed Jedi, that's fine, he's just a human; he's not from an entire race of Jedi-slaughterers. Unfortunately that (probably bigoted) thinking is what killed them.
     
  23. Likewater

    Likewater Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 31, 2009

    Rodians? I don't think so. Other aliens maybe but not most rodians, not about the dying anyway they might object to the mass cloning.

    Same with twi'leks and duros as they are common species and very unified something they share with humanity.
     
  24. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 10, 2005
    Also, jedi-killing abilities is similar to sith killing abilities - an army of Yinchorri might be a threat to Palpatine as well.
     
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  25. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    Frome some things I have read I have got the impression that Corellia has been given many cultural points from USA and/or used as a USA stand in. Have any other got the same impression or am I talking through my hat?