Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Lane_Winree Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 4

    Well THAT escalated quickly.
  2. patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4

    Which in turn (obviously) made the whole thing confusing because they suddenly switched from what (I think) was an honest apology that wasn't defensive and took responsibility to having to spend most of their time explaining why the REGULAR article exists and why it has the only canon painting of a bare breast in SW on it. I've no idea why an editor allowed that to go out in a SW book. I'm about as far from a prude as you can get and I think the breast article is just silly and the fact that they feel the need to defend it is just ridiculous.

    I don't really think fans need to know what the "in-universe" definition of a breast is because it's the same as the out of universe definition. Maybe some of it stems from that sense of "He who creates the most articles wins at wiki'ing!" or something, idk, but it really, really just doesn't serve a practical purpose, and the use of that picture is just silly.

    Coming back with "feminazi" or "why do you hate art?" is just silly. It has nothing to do with anything like that and everything to do with the fact that it's silly. Very, very silly. And if the Wook really does get complaints about it they should just stop and think; "Man, is it really worth the laugh we get over having this up?", because I don't really think it's about standing your ground for academic research of the SWU.

    That said, the actual apology for the AFD thing is spot on and exactly what was needed. It's just a shame it has the albatross of the regular article around it.
    blackmyron likes this.
  3. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    No, I agree with your thoughts here. Somehow I doubt that they've exhausted all other possible entries of more interest.
  4. patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4

    Hmmm...I'm actually surprised you haven't pulled the "I'm a Nice Guy" card.

    I'm just going to leave this here for you:

    http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2014/03/socially-awkward-isnt-an-excuse/

    If you really are the Comic Book Guy stereotype that you're projecting and seem to think everyone else is...you need that article.

    If you think everyone else who could possible be into SW or comic books is that stereotype...you need that article.

    If you think anything more than a minority of "geeks" (whatever the hell that is anymore) are that stereotype...you need that article.

    Because if you're not getting laid because you can't interact with other humans and have a neckbeard and smell like urine and like nerdy/geeky things...I assure you, it's not the nerdy/geeky things that are keeping you from getting laid.

    However, pretty sure you're not arguing in good faith....so, I say again; raise you game! GIVE ME BABYLONIAN STARGATES AND TRILATERAL CONSPIRACIES!
  5. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    I'm entirely unconvinced that the regular article is encyclopedic at all. The very way its written comes across as pseudo-Wiki in style -- I mean look at the BTS, for goodness sakes. It's not a serious article, and so the defense of it as a serious article rings hollow. It's there because people think they can get away with it, bottom line.

    But that's a different issue from the AFD joke, as well as the Wook's response to it. It would have been preferable had they not muddled the apology with a discussion of the regular article, though I can understand why that defense would be there. It was a decent apology -- overdue and only present after the rest of the fandom basically turned against them, but it was a decent apology.
    patchworkz7 likes this.
  6. TrakNar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2011
    star 5
    @CooperTFN - Personally, I don't want to get rid of the breast article. I think it's fine. It needs some serious cleanup, but aside from how it's been misused as of late, I see nothing wrong with it. I'd like to supplement it with a BTS that explains the arbitrary breast size changes in comic depictions, along with some other art depictions, perhaps even get into further detail about the infamous Aayla painting, but it will require a lot of research on my end. Such a BTS supplement, though, would improve the article greatly, along with more IU research.

    The article itself is not the problem. The problem lays solely with the people who abuse it for the lulz. That part I can't readily change without getting on a soapbox and lecturing, and that will fall mostly on deaf ears.
    Gamiel, Contessa, Goodwood and 4 others like this.
  7. Lane_Winree Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 4
    Flying under the radar, but it looks like Wookieepedia also lashed out against Clubjade for calling them out this morning.
  8. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    Trak, I get what you're saying; I'm just wondering what actual avenues are open to all the people who do want to get rid of it. After poking around a little, it appears that the wook had no official notability policy whatsoever until a couple months ago; and even the one it has now is downright virgin. Given the lightning-rod status of the breast article itself, I wonder whether a campaign to change the notability rules to exclude body parts would be the most productive way to change things.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Apr 4, 2014
  9. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Yeah, I heard about that. This is the problem with the group structure that they pointed out. The apology -- while decent, to me -- is likely the product of only one person in authority, whereas thinks like the above could be the product of an entirely different person. And unfortunately, that means that the apology doesn't really signify that they got their act together at all because a lot of folks probably still don't think an apology is warranted.
    Vthuil likes this.
  10. Erik_B Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2014
    star 1

    That's a very duplicitous way of getting what you want.
    Goodwood likes this.
  11. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    You spelled "effective" wrong.
    darth fluffy, Contessa, krtmd and 5 others like this.
  12. TrakNar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2011
    star 5
    The best way to go about it would be to go through Wikia itself. However, be warned that going through Wikia will incite some admins to get their panties in a twist much like the Six Degrees of Aayla's Boob fiasco did.

    During that incident, I had put the offer on the table to actually censor Aayla's exposed breast, even if it was simply to blur out the nipple. I'd suggest putting up a similar offer to have the article be improved/changed/made more concise within a certain time limit, lest it be removed completely. Lighting a fire under the administration's butt can sometimes work, if certain parties don't waste the entire time complaining about how they're being "persecuted" or whatever.

    Demanding to have the article removed will do more harm than good and certain parties will threaten to remove the Wook from Wikia (which is a terrible idea). The best way to solve this would be to reach a compromise, possibly using Wikia as leverage to get what you want.

    Just beware those certain parties.
    Last edited by TrakNar, Apr 4, 2014
    jcgoble3, Goodwood and CooperTFN like this.
  13. Erik_B Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2014
    star 1
    Just realise you ain't fooling anyone about what you really want.

    Representation=/=Censorship!




    Given that this would be an attempt at an end run to dictate policy using duplicitous means, what should they do? Politely not notice and let you walk all over them?
    Last edited by Erik_B, Apr 4, 2014
    Goodwood likes this.
  14. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 5
    Holy frell. He is basing himself off of Comic Book Guy, isn't he? It didn't really hit me until I read the stuff about "neckbeards" again.
  15. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    I feel like the Aayla thing isn't even the issue. I can't speak for female fans, but I know that I thought the article was pointless and juvenile well before the Visions thing came out, it's just that the Aayla thing underscored that. But it's a symptom, not a cause, and I don't know that censoring the image will change how silly the article is.

    Of course, the Aayla image being on top of the FA where it might've been accessed by children during AFD certainly does show that it is problematic.
    patchworkz7 likes this.
  16. TrakNar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2011
    star 5
    No.

    They should act like professionals.
  17. Erik_B Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2014
    star 1
    And politely point out that if you have a problem you should state it openly and discuss things instead of trying to go behind people backs?
    Goodwood likes this.
  18. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    In all fairness to what TrakNar is trying to do, it's less "Wookieepedia" and more "one person with a reputation for throwing temper tantrums".
  19. The_Forgotten_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2010
    star 4
    How is a campaign to change a policy going behind people's backs? I don't think it can get much more open than that.
    Last edited by The_Forgotten_Jedi, Apr 4, 2014
  20. Darth_Culator Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2005
    star 2
    Correct, some people don't think an apology is warranted (specifically me, can't speak for anyone else), but then a lot of people weren't in favor of the joke in the first place (also specifically me, only because I knew something like this would ensue).
    I can't believe I'm hearing that coming from you. That's the worst possible suggestion anyone could make, because it won't work and the backlash will be hideous. I'll make sure of that.
    The proper and only way to do it is per the consensus policy. 55 or more people will need to participate in a Trash Compactor discussion, since 55 participated in the last one and an equal or greater number must participate in a redo. Those 55 people must have 50 valid edits within the last 6 months and by the start of the discussion (to prevent vote-stuffing by single-issue voters).
    I wish you the best of luck. :D
    GGrievous likes this.
  21. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    Well, that's exactly what I'm saying--I neither believe in a witch hunt against that one article, nor think it would be helpful as a practical matter. But the larger argument of whether the wook needs body part articles is a much more reasonable one to make, IMO--and totally undercuts the "Wookieepedia does not censor" argument, because then it's really not about breasts themselves.

    Again, I recognize that you don't want that to happen, but try convincing @LaneWinree . :p

    Honestly not talking about myself. It's an interesting thought experiment, but I'm long past caring that much about wook policy.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Apr 4, 2014
    blackmyron likes this.
  22. TrakNar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2011
    star 5
    Using Wikia allows us to open a forum for professional discussion. Otherwise, without their help, any discussion tends to be blown off, particularly if it comes from someone who isn't an active member/has been inactive due to other things. I'm not saying to do anything without the knowledge of the Wook; I'm offering a suggestion on the most efficient way to open discussion without it being ignored.

    Let's face it: IRC is a terrible place for discussion and the forum topics can also be terrible without Wikia's help. I find that a meeting with a few representatives to be more conducive to solving a problem.

    I am speaking from experience, and experience has proven that previous avenues to incite change without Wikia's intervention have not worked due to certain parties.
    CooperTFN likes this.
  23. Erik_B Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2014
    star 1
    Okay, do you seriously not realize that that isn't fooling anyone?
  24. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    [face_laugh] I couldn't have asked for better timing.
    patchworkz7 likes this.
  25. patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4

    You do know what the equal sign, slash, equal sign means don't you?

    So...representation of others (other body sizes, races, genders, etc) does NOT equal censorship.

    I can not tell you how happy I am to see you agree with us.

    Welcome to Team Diversity!