Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    Well, I never mentioned the word "complained". But yes - while there certainly would be differences in the reactions (and - if my past posts haven't made it clear - I do think that's a problem), I suspect that if there had been a male character in Legacy who spent the whole time running around in nothing but a loincloth, a decent amount of fans would have trouble looking past that. I just don't think that level of cheesecake or beefcake is healthy for a character who's not meant to just be Sexpot #5.
  2. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    I think the disconnect we're having here might be that I don't think a character being scantily-dressed has to mean that she's a sexpot. You've even acknowledged that she isn't written that way, so it seems like you're objecting less to the clothes themselves than to the fact that people take her less seriously than they would if she dressed differently--and I'd object to that too.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Jun 12, 2014
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  3. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    That's partially true, but also I honestly think that there's no reason for a character who's not explicitly meant to be sexualized to be running around in a skimpy outfit either. Call me a prude if you want, but I really am with Jello here to an extent: the solution to excessive male gaze isn't to match with excessive female gaze, it's to tone down the male gaze.

    Mind you, I still think we do need more female gaze, because the thing where only heterosexual men are assumed to have any active sexual desire needs to be killed dead. I'm just not as sympathetic to the basic concept of 'cake fanservice as you seem to be.
    Last edited by Vthuil, Jun 12, 2014
  4. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Well, it has nothing to do with whether she's a sexpot. I don't care about the promiscuity of fictional characters any more than I do about real people -- people's business is their business.

    The issue is that she's dressed the way she is to appeal to the male audience. You may argue if that was Duursema's intent or not -- but she was definitely marketed that way.
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  5. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    That's fair enough, but I wouldn't characterize what I'm sympathetic to as fanservice. Part of what I was trying to say is that a certain amount, and a certain manner, of deliberate provocativeness is rational and healthy.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Jun 12, 2014
  6. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    I think it's a matter of bisociation - that we can hold different and often contrary views at the same time. Viewing a character as physically attractive doesn't negate viewing a character as interesting or compelling. "Fanservice" to me is where it is blatantly obvious that they are pandering to a demographic to the detriment of the characterization or story.
    Having said that, I'll repeat my statement that as much as I like Catwoman as a compelling and physically attractive character, I was profoundly annoyed by her appearance in Arkham City. MY GOD ZIP UP THE CATSUIT.
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  7. Rogue Five Jedi Master

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    Jun 11, 2014
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    I like and dislike her i that game. I love her voice actress, Grey Delise, which makes if hard for me to hate her portrayal too much. And she was extremely fun to play on the combat maps because of her insane speed. But yeah running around in the unzipped catsuit in the middle of winter is a bit odd, sexy or not. I think the outfit fits her character, but when it's ten below out you'd think she'd be dressing more warmly. Of course all the women in that game were a bit exposed... Especially Ivy. I miss her BTAS outfit. Ditto Harley. Sometimes less is more!
    Last edited by Rogue Five, Jun 12, 2014
  8. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

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    MP doesn't have the combat animations, which are a fairly vast number of the total animations. MP characters just have a handful of designated kill animations.
  9. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    In the SW: RPG (D20) book Hero's Guide they have some new Force using archetypes, one of those is the urban adept. In the description of them they mention that -
    And I was wondering if people know what kind of prejudice and persecution the author was thinking of and why many worlds have them against… what exactly? Force users? People with “supernatural” powers? Player characters in need of a tragic backstory?
    Last edited by Gamiel, Jun 13, 2014
  10. Jensaarai-defender Jedi Grand Master

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    I agree,but that's not I was going for. I was wondering If the "Gatekeepers" that lurk in the star wars fandom(I kow that they are there) would have come out to fight "liberal agenda and forced divercity"that had creeped into star wars.
  11. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Well, they did that anyway--simply the fact that she was an assertive teenage girl was enough.
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  12. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    An assertive teenage girl who is an apprentice/sidekick to the main-character? She most be a Mary-Sue!
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  13. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    No, more like a "kid substitute". It's an established notion that "the kidz" won't watch a bunch of adults running around unless there's someone non-adult they can identify with - the most galling example is the cartoon version of Sam & Max.

    It's nonsense, of course - when I was 5, every kid on the playground was running around pretending to be Obi-Wan, or Vader, or Han Solo, or Leia, or Luke - but that seems to be the thought in corporate circles.
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  14. Rogue Five Jedi Master

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    Jun 11, 2014
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    I don't get that either. Apparently kids can relate only to other kids. That's why Robin was added to Batman comics, along with a slew of other kid sidekicks over the years. Iirc, the 2001 Justice League cartoon was supposed to have a couple kids along with the main team so kids would watch it. ??? I don't know about you guys, but I always ran around pretending to be Batman as a kid, not Robin. Just strikes me as a bit odd. Unfortunately, I'd bet my SW novel collection that idea is why Ezra is the lead in Rebels.

    I don't mind young characters when they're well written and fit the setting i.e. Harry Potter, but when they're shoe horned in for no reason, it always disappoints me.
    Also, 50 posts for me! XD
  15. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    If there's one thing this thread has taught me, it's not to jump to conclusions about when and why anyone is "shoe horned" into something. At the end of the day, all that matters is the writing.
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  16. Rogue Five Jedi Master

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    Fair enough. I guess "shoe horning" might be a poor choice of words on my part. I do agree writing and the portrayal of the character is generally the main problem with that type of character. Like Ahsoka. Anakin had a padawan we never heard of before 2008? Okay. I liked the concept of the young Jedi role model for girls ( and boys!) but the fact that she hijacked the show and ended up portrayed as smarter than everyone kinda else ruined her for me.
    So, I suppose my problem is less the inclusion of the character, and more the portrayal of them. Like Ezra. I don't have a problem wih the concept of the character or his inclusion, but the fact he seems written to pander to five year olds irks me.
  17. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    Sidekicks are actually an important narrative devise - it gives the storytellers somebody that can ask the questions that the public is thinking, give the main character somebody to talk to, make it possible to have situations/stories built on the premise that somebody have acted in the way the younger public would want to but is something that the more mature characters would not do, etc. etc.
  18. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Okay so I was reading the Outcasts of the Broken Ring TPB for Legacy vol. 2 and was looking at Yalta Val and Jao Assam and knew who was who because they said so but just by looking at them they look way too similar. The hair might look different but still hard to tell at times imo.
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  19. themetresgained Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 23, 2013
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    Funny you should say that. I've been going through Republic, and reading the Jabiim arc - am I *supposed* to be able to tell the difference between Kass and Zule in panels where Zule's cybernetic arm isn't visible? Apparently Kass is meant to be a Zabrak and Zule a Falleen, the latter's skin is orange and the former's is brown but they more or less look the same. Same with Anakin and Mak.
  20. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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  21. Kylun Jedi Grand Master

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    Don't know if anyone else has seen this, but Far Cry 4's protagonist has been revealed.
    Show Spoiler
    [IMG]
    His name's Ajay Ghale, and he's a native of Kyrat, where the game takes place.
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  22. Jensaarai-defender Jedi Grand Master

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    Well i did have issues with how Ahsoka started personality wise,where she ended up was fine though. And she was at times normal "American/western" girl give the force and a light-saber.

    Given a chance to change things, I'd see her written as what she was, an ascetic warrior nun in training. quite respectful and obedient...on the surface.:cool:
  23. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Not SW-related but very relevant to this thread generally:

    Watson & Holmes: A Study In Black

    It's a pretty ballsy move to relocate Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson to the modern day, more so to locate in America and then render them black! If you're going to have the sheer nerve to try to pull off that trio, you better have the skill to match your ambitions! Fortunately, Bollers and Leonardi do.

    This is a great reworking of the characters - they remain recognisable - Holmes is erratic and chaotic, Watson is the more level-head and dependable of the pair, but Watson has his own troubles adjusting to civilian life - or rather, failing to. Mycroft is rendered is a more protective light here, asking Watson to keep an eye on his crazy little brother. Of course, despite being a relatively minor character overall, no reworking of these characters can not give a nod to Moriarty - and so it proves here. Bollers' take is as innovative as everything else here.

    All in all? A very smart story indeed and a great reinvention - definitely give this a try.
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  24. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Sep 8, 2004
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    I don't care if you make them black. I don't care if you relocate them.

    But eugh... not another modern day version. I hate, hate, hate it when they do that. :p

    Yes, I hate the BBC show, and regard it Sherlock-In-Name-Only.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Jun 21, 2014
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  25. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    As much as I'm all yay 19th century, I don't mind the new version. Probably because I don't know the original stories that well.

    Mostly I enjoy it because everybody loves Sherlock and I think he's a fool. But Mycroft is my sort of fellow. So as long as he appears, I'm entertained.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.