Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Ultimates Dissassembled
    Hunger
    Cataclysm: Ultimates
    Cataclysm: X-Men

    Sadly, his involvement in the Ultimate-verse looks to be at an end with the cancellation of the new Ultimate FF book.
  2. patchworkz7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4
    Yes, normally Millar is content to rip off former friend Grant Morrison, but with Ultimate Hulk he really reached for it and ripped off Alan Moore's version of Mr Hyde; a super-strong cannibal who is the worst of man's urges manifest.

    I always thought to myself; "What's missing from the Hulk is rape and cannibalism."

    And then Jeph Loeb came and decided to try to out declass the joint by writing incest with horrible artwork in Vol 3.

    ETA: Please do stop by Tate Modern to see my instillation of my newest piece of art; "Incest with Horrible Artwork", which is a pile of VC Andrews' "Flowers in the Attic" that I have defecated on. The Guardian is already calling it a daring shot across the bows of modern sensibilities.
    Last edited by patchworkz7, Aug 2, 2014
  3. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    So, beside Ultimate Spider-Man, what do people like with/from the Ultimate universe?
  4. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    You have to ask? Surely one answer has be Nick Fury.
  5. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    I count him in with Ultimate Spider-Man since it is USM Nick Fury who is likable, unlike Ultimates Nick Fury who is a a-hole who the authors tries to hard to show as badass.
  6. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
  7. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    This conversation has taken an odd turn.
  8. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Things I liked:
    * Wolverine as Magneto's minion because of what Weapon X did to him.
    * asian-american Wasp who's powers come from being a mutant.
    * the parts of Captain Americas origins that was used in the movie.
    * environmentalist Tor that most people think is insane.
    * Toad and Cyclops being friends.
    * probably other things that I can not remember right now.

    How so?
    Last edited by Gamiel, Aug 3, 2014
  9. Quinnocent-Till-Sith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2004
    star 3
    I agree Ultimates 3 was awful but not because of Joe Madureira. ;)
  10. patchworkz7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4

    I don't have a real beef against Madureira, but his storytelling in those issues was HORRIBLE. It could have been worse because Loeb was trying to explain what was happening but I still think it was the wrong choice of artist along with a bad story.
  11. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    So, to sum up the last 300+ pages, what are the main forms of bias in Star Wars as it is?
  12. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    Omission, basically.

    Or did you mean in-universe?
  13. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
  14. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Last edited by Gamiel, Aug 4, 2014
  15. sharkymcshark Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 2
    I saw it and then I saw the PC gone mad card get played after 8 posts so I closed it.
    VanishingReality likes this.
  16. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
  17. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Well, if you've something to add....
  18. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2013
    star 4
    On the Marvel superheroine front: Apparently, Sony is revamping their entire schedule of Spider-Man films, sliding the third Amazing Spider-Man back to 2018, moving Sinister Six up to 2016, and aiming a "female superhero movie" for 2017. I'm not up on Spider-Man's lore outside of the cartoons, how many female superheroes would Sony have the rights to? I can only think of Spider-Woman, Black Cat and Silver Sable, barring their re-inventing a traditionally male character or doing a distaff counterpart.

    Also related, the same executive team that's apparently greenlighting this is the one pushing for a woman-focused reboot of Ghostbusters and are trying to lure Paul Feig, the guy who did Bridesmaids, away from Fox to do it.
  19. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    Possibly, but I'm not exactly keeping a running tally. The OP is essentially a summary of the previous two threads; I don't recall this one breaking any dramatically new ground. Also the conversation is more about the methods of bias, not coming up with demographic categories.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Aug 4, 2014
  20. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6


    Well, I'm just asking because I wanted to ask next how you think the ST and New EU would do on each of those categories... and what you think the best EU work so far has been for each of those categories.

    I ask because the new casting news on Episode 7 seems positive so far, even if the first big announcement wasn't. We have several women, at least 3 characters of color, a man that could pass as Latino or Middle-Eastern, and I think they recently cast an Asian woman too. (No news on alien, droid, or gay characters, but you can't really announce that just with casting... though casting Serkis is a big hint there will be at least one new alien character). I just hope most of these guys get significant screentime and some dialogue.

    I'm not sure about which EU works are best for each category, though I think Legacy Volume II is probably a good contendor.
    Last edited by Ghost, Aug 4, 2014
  21. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    Well, despite (or because of) our efforts to "score" a lot of stories, it's very difficult to talk authoritatively about works being "bad" or "good" at diversity. One thing we have discussed in this particular thread is that something like Kenobi can do pretty poorly in terms of diversity but be largely forgiven because it's mostly about a couple small families--and vice-versa, big galaxy-spanning stories steeped in the halls of power like LotF have a higher standard to meet even if they're not scoring much different from Kenobi.

    And that goes doubly for Episode VII--there's a lot of potential in that cast, but if the men are the real stars, and/or the women are two-dimensional excuses for the men to be heroic, and/or the POCs come across as tokens rather than real people, it doesn't matter what the demographics are.

    I agree with you that Legacy--both volumes, in fact--is maybe the best overall at utilizing a diverse cast. Ostrander and Duursema tend to be a little melodramatic for my taste, but their stories (and now Bechko/Hardman's) feel more like my personal vision of the GFFA than most others'.
    Mia Mesharad and Ghost like this.
  22. Quinnocent-Till-Sith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2004
    star 3
    Both Jackpots, presumably.

    Jessica Drew/Spider-Woman;
    Julia Carpenter/Spider-Woman/Arachne/Madame Web (II);
    May Parker/Spider-Girl,
    Araña, maybe?
    If the Ultimate universe is included: Ultimate Spider-Woman/Jessica Drew/Female clone of Peter Parker

    Lots of spiders, basically.
  23. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    I don't think Jessica Drew is part of the Spider-Man licence
  24. Valin__Kenobi Author: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Praji

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
  25. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Zorrixor likes this.