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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
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  2. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    http://www.avclub.com/article/selmas-david-oyelowo-challenges-playing-dr-martin--213165

     
  3. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    The rest of that article is every bit as good and well worth a read.
     
  4. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    I know I've just been dumping a lot of articles in here lately but this one is really something, and it makes me think of several debates we've had in here over the years.
    PC, I'd be interested in your feelings about this in particular.
     
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    You neglected to quote the most important part, Coop, geez.

    Anyway, I like that one because it squarely engages the confusion about things like privilege and it attempts to invite/coopt rather than accuse. I find that a lot of resistance to feminism comes from people who are wrongfully defensive, either because they are unwilling to feel at fault when they probably should or because they're pushed there when they could be seeing how good they have it instead.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
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  6. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    ...I hadn't read that far yet.

    ;)
     
  7. JediMara77

    JediMara77 Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 5, 2004

    Hell, I used to "hate" men because I was treated so badly in school by guys I liked. I can totally understand why some guys would become misogynists. But while it's perfectly understandable to have those sorts of reactions, it's not understandable to let those instances color all your experiences with the opposite sex forever.
     
  8. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    I agree. My reaction parallels a discussion I've had with feminists about the subject; that their job was not to educate, but to call out. I said that if you only did the latter without doing the former, you'd never convince anybody. Ultimately that should be the goal: while kids can be shaped by positive, non-misogynistic stuff (see the above Frozen ref) people who are already grown up need to be able to challenge their preconceived notions. They won't do that while they're being backed into a wall and forced to defend them.

    I don't think any guy grew up a feminist because our generation had so much toxic stuff growing up, though less than before. So every one of us in this thread was convinced at some point, after all.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  9. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

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    Aug 12, 2013
    I had a discussion (well, I say that) with a younger brother about this last night. He's a huge Chicago Bulls fan, and he was raising a stink about there being a woman referee on the court for their game last night (mind, he's like thirteen, fourteen). I pressed him on why, and aside from the usual teenage "It's stupid! She's a girl!" whining, he said it was because the players wouldn't be able to get upset and shout and scream the way they sometimes do, since shouting at a girl is, in his words, awkward. I told him "Good, maybe they'll start playing like professionals for once."
     
  10. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    It's funny with sports - there seems to be very distinct attitudes to the authority figure of the referee. Over here, football is likely akin to basketball, players protesting decisions and so on. But in rugby, both union and league, no one messes with the ref! Despite the ref often being a far slighter figure than the players he's refereeing.
     
  11. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Reminds me of the only time I saw a protested call during a fencing bout. It was during the 2012 Olympics, and I was watching épée in between doing other stuff. There was a challenged call, and the fencer had to stay seated on the piste the entire time while her coach challenged the video recording for a scoring issue.

    Several hours later, she was still sitting on the piste (still in tears from her defeat) while her coach argued.

    That's rough. Most sporting calls have to be challenged right away of course, but being restricted to that tiny area in full view of cameras... not fun.

    I feel like these days, sports have more arcane rules and protocols than international statecraft :p

    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  12. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2013

    I don't disagree with any of these perceptions; I only disagree with the idea that "privilege" is something which can be addressed head-on. Activists have never in history gotten off that easy.

    Something interesting is happening here: In trying to be rational, there's a dwindling of what privilege really means; it became a controversial word (even the woman who originated it as a concrete social term regrets it), and now moderate, diplomatic feminists have stuck it on a big gyro meat cone to shave away pieces of its definition bit by bit and make it seem less gross. This is beneficial for the dumb rank-and-file feminists because hopefully, maybe, possibly, it'll teach them that saying "ugh men" on their tumblrs is not feminism, and it's beneficial for the dumb rank-and-file anti-feminists because hopefully, maybe, possibly, it'll teach them that it affects them as well... and maybe it'll help BOTH battle lines learn that the discussion about privilege is not personal.

    But even through all that, the inherent problem with the privilege discussion is that it places a leverageable value on suffering. Instead of seeking to build people up, it seeks sympathy, and in all but the most intellectually-sensitive, that has the effect of bringing everyone down to the same level. So we have activists arguing over who's had it harder; what could serve the interests of the patriarchy more than that?

    I know what you're thinking, that it's a small sample. However, it's a simple fact that this thinking has made a number of young, quirky teens list their social and emotional maladies like merit badges---a small number, but not an insignificant one as human lives go. But what do people usually say about this? "They're outliers, it doesn't really represent the movement at large..." But no, you don't get to be a part of the cause and say that. I only believe in a movement which cares for its own. Finding a way to correct that, to correct the toxic messages within one's own movement whose bile trickles down onto quieter, younger strangers and siblings and friends, is a necessity. Ignoring the negative bile-spewers because they're on the same side of the battle line and have good-ish intentions is not an oversight which any movement can afford; I mean, look at how much Dr. King had to address his own people to make progress. There is virtually NO base of information directed internally at card-carrying feminists with any hint of keeping things in line. Nowadays, if you do that, you're branded as anti-feminism by the the rank-and-file who have been allowed to glut themselves with that bile in the first place... not, you know, just trying to fix something and make it all work better.

    The idea is that this about the patriarchy, right? So why are so few feminists actually political? Feminism has been simplified to the point that people whose political leanings actively uphold patriarchal standards can still call themselves feminists (remember, I'm in the south, I've seen some **** you wouldn't believe on that front). Personally, I'm politically nihilistic---that's another discussion; it's not a lazy lack of position, but a position the merits of which I have much conviction for---but in the end, I see it like this: Patriarchy exists because in the beginning, physical power ruled all, so men ruled. Then came property, and a certain percentage of men saw this coming, so they used their physical power to control property. Then came influence, and a smaller percentage of men saw this coming, so they used their property to generate influence. The actual percentage of "elite" has dwindled and dwindled as empires came and went, and now it has nothing to do with them being men... it only has to do with the fact that the first rulers were men. Petty, stupid men have been trying to emulate that since the dawn of time, and they're allowed to because of that patriarchy. Agreed, 100%.

    ...But why are we trying to change ALL the petty, stupid men? Why not try to stitch up the actual patriarchal leaders of society, instead of just trying to bandage their effects? At this rate, it will take centuries, and THAT, right there, is the result of the patriarchy. Years of ideas about civilization, the power of our words, equality, all that stuff... It was all to make us feel like we had a shot at changing things, but the changes we wanted have never actually been on the docket. So what does people having their feelings hurt have to do with any of this? It's only hurting more young feelings---whether justifiably or not, it doesn't really matter---and distracting from the actual purpose of all this, isn't it?

    Trying to fight the patriarchy with only feminism is like trying to fight a war with only medics.
     
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  13. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    You know it is times like this I really understand the differences our countries put in the word feminism.
     
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  14. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    Well, PC, I think our fundamental disagreement is still whether or not the change you're talking about can be bottom-up or just top-down; but by and large I can appreciate all of that.
     
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  15. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    I really don't think equality--true equality--is achievable by man regardless of any actions taken. It is a noble aspiration though. Yet, attempting to deny or destroy gender roles won't achieve it. Though I do think they are misunderstood and mishandled pretty widely.
     
  16. JediMara77

    JediMara77 Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 5, 2004
  17. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    I think that another fundamental disagreement -- certainly one that colors many aspects of the discussion -- is his suggestion that discussions of privilege invariably result in people arguing over who's had it worth, as if it's some sort of sympathy game.

    But yeah the top vs bottom cleavage is another large one. I have further thoughts on that, but it -- again -- takes it to a larger political dimension.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
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  18. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    You said "cleavage".
     
  19. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2013

    I think in the upper echelons of the discussion, you're correct... but I'm speaking less about discussions of higher intellectual value; I'm only making this claim about the mass discussion going on among the lowest common denominator of people who are able to ponder these topics (i.e. random comment threads, etc). But of course, that's the arena which I see as having the most cultural relevance: the distorted/simplified version gleaned by that lowest common denominator. I'd hope we'd be more inclined to agree through that lens, at least.

    EDIT: It should be said that I have a fairly Jungian populist-pessimist/intellectual-optimist mindset in general, though. I believe most people's hands generally need to be held, but that the people who are taking part in the civil discourse really aren't the problem in the end, because I think we're all fairly decent people. That's why this particular generation/topic combo gets my gears turning, because it's a discourse which dips in and out of civility like a goddamn dolphin and I can't decide whether to ignore it or feed it a fish.

    Does it make me arrogant? Maybe. I dunno. I just callzum like I seezum.
     
  20. JediFreac

    JediFreac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 7, 2002
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  21. andreaphilips3

    andreaphilips3 Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 30, 2014
  22. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Prae Cog: sure, I can see that. I definitely think attitudes like that inhibit a genuine conversation about it, much in the same way that "it's not my job to show you why you're a ____" doesn't help people understand either.

    I'm not a person who's out there with the cause. But I do think that those who are should try to inform and build bridges, because that's how you persuade. Going on the attack is good at winning like-minded adherents, but not good at winning hearts and minds.

    And as before, I guess this too could apply to politics.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
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  23. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Yeah he did, just not in the sense you're thinking of.:D
     
  24. newdawn12

    newdawn12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 9, 2013
    I can see Rey as a Mash up of Ania, and Jaina.

    With the rumors Finn could be a mash up of Zekk, and Jag
     
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  25. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    Um, what's that have to do with this thread?