Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Counter Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2017
    star 1
    Are you serious? Do you really want me to go into explicit detail about men and women's differing biology? Or about homosexual couple's different challenges? Do I need to explain to you about reproduction?

    I'm fairly confident no gay couple understands the pain of a miscarriage--something my wife and I unfortunately are all too familiar with. I realize that's a very personal comment, but your outrage at objective fact is beyond silly.

    You're overreacting and seeing cause for offense where there isn't any.

    As far as Rose goes, I don't have a problem with Asian characters being in the background of a film at all. You're missing my point. I stated that Rose's inclusion as a major character is exciting and far preferable than a mere background character.
    Last edited by Counter, Oct 17, 2017
  2. Counter Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2017
    star 1
    I completely understand where you're coming from.
  3. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 6
    Disagree. Looks like it's getting circular.

    I don't puff my chest out, I don't call out people's toughness or courage, because I don't try to dominate people with threats of violence. I'm not sure why you keep using fighting words. I'm not sure why you keep escalating our exchange of words here into something resembling violence, or a prelude to violence.

    I'm perfectly capable of pointing out bias without puffing my chest out, because I don't engage in battles for male dominance.

    I wasn't bragging, I was only putting my participation in perspective. If I say worse to my own mother, of course I'll say these things to anyone else. I wouldn't hold back unless I simply felt like it.
  4. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 6
    Do these relatively minor differences matter more than all the ways you are the same? Do they really make you different?

    If you prick a homosexual couple, do they not bleed? And all that.

    Your imagination is so limited.

    I'm absolutely certain, 100%, that plenty of gay couples understand the pain of miscarriage. I know examples. Did you think a gay woman can't get pregnant?
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  5. tatooinesandworm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2015
    star 2
    First, you are wrong. LGBT couples can and often do feel the pain of miscarriages.

    Second, starting a my pain is greater than your pain train is going to end horribly. This should end right here. It is not worth it to follow this rabbit hole. Pain is very personal to everyone.

    Third, I am truly, truly, sorry for your loss. It is one of those things that shouldn’t exist in this world.



    Sent from my Ornithopter using The Force
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  6. Counter Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2017
    star 1
    LGBT couples often feel the pain of something that's a biological impossibility for them to feel? The loss of a naturally conceived child? Fascinating.

    That entire statement is just divorced from reality. I do appreciate your condolences though.

    Yes--a lesbian woman can be artificially inseminated. Yes, that pregnancy can end in miscarriage. But the experience is emotionally experienced in a far different way from a natural conception miscarriage. Speaking from excruciating personal experience.

    I'm not going to explain why that is because it's obvious. And I'm not suggesting that a lesbian couple doesn't experience pain either. It's different though. Which is the entire reason I brought it up. It's a very clear instance of how hetero relationships can result in different experiences.

    On a separate note and in reference to another post by JediMara, to be outraged by a statement that homosexual couples and heterosexual couples have different lifestyles and life experiences (biologically, culturally, politically) is indicative of an intent to be outraged for the sake of being outraged.

    Different doesn't equal bad.

    This mindset is a long-term threat to the liberal worldview.
    Last edited by Counter, Oct 17, 2017
  7. JediMara77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2004
    star 4
    Hey, guess what. My husband is bisexual. I'm infertile. We suffered a miscarriage and have been unable to get pregnant ever since, even after fertility treatments and surgery.

    So yes, LGBT couples can know this pain. Don't you DARE assume otherwise. Now I'm going to stop posting before I get banned because I am so angry right now.
    Endor_boy, CooperTFN, Vthuil and 15 others like this.
  8. Counter Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2017
    star 1
    I'm truly sorry for your loss.
  9. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    I’m heterosexual, I have two children conceived via sex with a man, and I’ve never miscarried, and the statement “LGBTQ people never know the pain of miscarriage” royally pissed me off.

    Why the utter hell would you or anyone else assume that a child conceived via artificial insemination would be less loved and less wanted than a child conceived via sex with a man? Who the hell are you to make assumptions about how much anyone loves their children based on the method of conception?

    That is so many levels of not OK.

    The difference in “lifestyles” in LGBTQ couples is that most heterosexual couples do not have to put up with people saying **** like that about their children or daring to suggest that they are less loved or wanted.
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  10. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 6
    You're using biology rather fast and loose here. The pain from the loss of a naturally conceived child is...biology, now? Can you point me to a biology paper that says the pain from the loss of a naturally conceived child is biologically different from the pain from a loss of an artificially conceived child?

    Your imagination still coming up short. I can go get a lesbian pregnant right now, no artificial insemination required. Totally natural conception.

    You have the personal experience of a lesbian losing an artificially inseminated child? So you can compare the two?
    Oh, so if you prick a lesbian, they bleed, but not the same. Okay.

    Is a lesbian laugh the same as a hetero laugh?

    Now you're playing the "you're not really outraged" defense. First, you have a gay friend, then it's biology, now it's faux outrage. This is getting cliche.

    It does when you view them as The Other.
  11. Counter Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2017
    star 1
    No one said they are less loved or wanted. I said the experience is different. And it is.

    And I'm not going to apologize for saying that. Regardless of how royally pissed off you are.
  12. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    What makes you think it’s different?

    I think this question bears repeating:

    Do you have the experience of being a lesbian losing an artificially inseminated child?

    If not, you have no business lesbian’splaining what she feels when that happens.
  13. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 6

    "No! No different! Only different in your mind."
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  14. Counter Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2017
    star 1

    I can create life with my wife. They can't. If you think you're going to start an inquisition because I stated an objective truth, then you're wrong.

    There is an emotional difference. And in the case of two gay men, they can't experience this at all.

    This is called reality. And I'm not about to be bullied into submission for stating truth. So be as angry as you want.
    Last edited by Counter, Oct 17, 2017
  15. tatooinesandworm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2015
    star 2
    This situation isn’t even limited to the path of conception. That’s why this is such a horrible thread to be pulling on.

    JediMara sending love your way❤️

    The pain of a parent losing a child is a universally horrible feeling. It doesn’t matter if your child was conceived via natural methods, artificially, you adopted a child, or you took a child into your care and loved them due to other circumstances in their life. Your child is your child, and if that child is lost, the pain in unreal.

    Speaking from personal experience, it is something that I wouldn’t wish on an enemy.


    Sent from my Ornithopter using The Force
  16. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

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    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    My nephew is an IVF baby; my sister experienced fertility issues and several miscarriages.

    I have seen, albeit not here (at least not at the moment) idiotic comments about how IVF babies are somehow inferior to babies conceived via sex.

    If you can’t see how wrong that mentality is, the best I can do is point out that this site has a hate speech policy and targeting LGBTQ people’s love for each other and their children (whether conceived via artificial insemination or adopted) as “inferior” is not OK, regardless of any personal feelings of superiority for remaining “calm and rational” while other people are angry.
  17. Counter Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2017
    star 1
    I don't disagree at all that everyone feels pain. It's gut-wrenching and horrible and I'm done talking about it. I was asked how my life experience differs as a married heterosexual male. This is an example.

    It's not a value judgment. It's merely a truth that the loss of a child conceived via natural means is emotionally different because I was involved in the act.

    Not going to retract that statement no matter how angry folks are. I am leaving this thread though.
  18. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    I couldn’t even tell you exactly when and where “the act” was in which my children were conceived, and I love them no less for the fact that there were enough “acts” within the right time frame to keep me from being able to pinpoint exactly the one.

    “The act” is not what makes people love their children.
    Jedi Ben likes this.
  19. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 6
    So much for the moral high ground.

    Have you tried any of that self-examination I mentioned? Because you seem to be blundering forward, eyes closed. Try stopping and thinking. Is there any chance you're wrong about anything here? Any of that prejudice we've been talking about? Because you're not handling this well. It looks like you're having the classic meltdown people have when they confront their own prejudice.

    Oh, and we can add "objective truth" to the list of cliches.
    theraphos and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  20. Counter Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2017
    star 1

    I'm not saying they're inferior for God's sake. You're putting words into my mouth. I have a cousin who has children via IVF. She would agree with everything I said.

    Get off your ridiculous moral high horse and your ridiculous "hate speech" nonsense. I was asked how my experiences differed. I have a VERY PERSONAL example and you have the gall to attack me?

    Kindly kiss off.
  21. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    The “ridiculous hate speech nonsense” can be read in rule #1 here and is enforced regardless of how “ridiculous” you find it.

    As are the rules against flaming other users.
  22. Counter Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2017
    star 1
    I haven't committed any hate speech. You're the one flaming, trolling, and baiting me.
  23. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 6
    Quite frankly that's enough from you Counter. My apologies to the other people he's offended
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  24. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 6
    Again?

    Run away! Far away! If we can feel your presence, then leave this place!

    This isn't you being relegated to an Undesirable, it's you running away from an argument, and any perceived ostracism is not actual ostracism, but it is self-inflicted.

    Well, unless you get banned. Then it's mod enforced, and probably temporary.
  25. Outsourced Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2017
    star 4
    ...

    Well this has been an... interesting few pages.