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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Babylon 5 (well, one of the spin-off shows) had one of the best takes on the X-Files ever, where the 'greys' were humans.
     
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  2. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Despite having it pre-installed on my phone, I've never used go90, so I have no firsthand knowledge of it. According to Wikipedia, it's "free, ad-supported, and does not require a subscription."

    Agreed. And they were one of the first shows that had aliens that required different environments than humanity as a feature of the setting rather than a one-off plot point, though the realities of their limited budget meant that those species didn't appear often.
     
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  3. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    [​IMG]
     
  4. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    While the films may be less than stellar on alien diversity, the books, comics, and reference guides of the new canon are knocking it out of the park. In Jason Fry's Bomber Command, we see the Resistance having a Faust flight doctor, a Martigrade commanding officer, and a Mon Calamari female waitress that was a Resistance informant. Chuck Wendig is another standout, who gets major points. The Aftermath Trilogy is chalk full of alien species, especially the OT and PT variety. Battlefront II as well, with Duros, Quarren, Abednedo, Rodian, Sullustan, Twi'lek, and other species all used regularly.

    As Dan Wallace would say, all these species/worlds/ships are "props" for the play, it makes sense to use them when you're putting on a new performance. ;)

    --Adm. Nick
     
  5. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    I'm reading Cobalt right now and it definitely struck me that Fossil is the kind of character who'd just be walking around in the background of the movies but actually gets to be a character in the books.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  6. Darth Sith Saber

    Darth Sith Saber Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2016
    It's not a problem. The characters were written/cast that way and that's that. The movies were made in countries where the majority of people are white, males fit the roles at the time of writing and human because... They had no specific reason to make the character non-human. In most cases "straight" is a lie because no reference to their sexuality is mentioned and it is unnecessary to mention it, most people ASSUME they're heterosexual. Children watch the movies and there is no need to make any explicit reference toward sexuality. When a male and female character form a romantic bond, as is common in movies and fiction, that adds to the story. There are plenty of movies about homosexual characters out there that serve a purpose to their story, and there's no need to shoehorn it into movies for kids for the sake of politicising them, just like there are no Jewish characters or people of certain other "protected characteristics" that could be shoehorned in. It just doesn't fit the story, and trying to politicise things by shoehorning such characteristics in isn't a "victory" for anyone, it's an embarrassment to them, like signposting them with a freakshow label.

    I have honestly never watched a Bollywood movie and felt that it needed more Caucasian people or latinos or Arabic people. I think it would be insulting to any of those groups of people to try and shoehorn them in - only include those characters if it is fitting to the story, tokenism is insulting. If you tried to shoehorn my protected (or non-protected) characteristics into a movie or form of media to make a point, I would be offended. It is ignorant to feel like I need others to push my traits into things to make a point to other people. Ignorant and offensive.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  7. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
  8. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    That reminds me. I made these for folk to use as and when they are required:

    (Well, "made". I added text.)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  9. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    geez 572 unnecessary pages

    glad we had someone to let us know [face_dunno]
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  10. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Do you have any follow up with "I'm sorry for having to backstab you"?
     
  11. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    In keeping with the thread: *Cool story, Cis
     
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  12. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Also can we get it in huttese, mando'a and sith?

    :p
     
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  13. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    sith-het scum
     
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  14. Endor_boy

    Endor_boy Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2013
    Not all children are straight.
    I was a gay kid and seeing a gay character in Star Wars would've meant the world to me then (and now, but honestly I needed it more then). Gay characters in Star Wars could literally save lives.
    Nobody is asking for a token. Anyone who wants a gay character in Star Wars also wants them well written.
    As a gay person I can tell you I am not embarassed by fair diversity. Most gay people are pleased and empowered to see themselves reflected in media, since many of us grew up feeling invisible. Not seeing yourself reflected positively in media does not make you feel like a freakshow. Being included makes you feel like you're actually a part of the world.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    If female leads, characters of color, and LGBTQ characters are “shoehorned in,” then male leads, white characters and heterosexual characters are “shoehorned in.”

    If there is “no need to make an explicit reference to sexuality,” then heterosexual couples should not hold hands or kiss any more often than LGBTQ characters should hold hands and kiss.

    As a woman I definitely do not think that strong female leads are insulting. I find it far more insulting when women are portrayed as weak, dependent and emotional, which is the traditional way to portray a female character.
     
  16. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    [​IMG]
     
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  17. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    I miss that meme.
     
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  18. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
  19. Darth Sith Saber

    Darth Sith Saber Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2016
    I don't see how having a same sex couple in a star wars film would save lives. It's just a movie for kids and adults to have an hour or two of light entertainment, and is nerds to discuss ad infinitum, it's not the place to push political or social views or aspects, especially divisive ones that not everyone agrees are good for people of all ages to see (regardless of what arguments you can make). That's just how it is. It's Star Wars, not high school musical, term soap operas or Billy Eliot where they're targeted at certain groups wherein people might have sexuality based issues and require comfort or reassurance, and can be tailored to them. Star Wars should just be star wars and not that movie that divides people over political issues - there's enough debate over that with people feeling that certain aspects of character were pushed for certain agendas and status quos (I don't think they were - I just think they're cool characters although I just want more Luke ha), that fire doesn't need stoking by a saga based on a few powerful people in space fighting for a fantasy based galaxy, it would certainly feel shoehorned in - the closest I could see fitting is a kind of alien race that only has males (or females).
     
  20. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    Ah, divisive ideas like:
    • It's OK to be Gay.
    • There are people who aren't white and male.
    • Nazis are bad.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  21. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    By this line of thinking a factual recounting of my own fairly mundane and reasonably conformist life thus far would be inappropriately 'divisive', because I live in a world where gay people exist and have interacted with them.
     
  22. EmperorHorus

    EmperorHorus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2016
    A same-sex relationship would only be shoe-horned in if it is actually shoe-horned in. You could say the exact same thing for hetero relationships in films and it happens all the time. It's actually a pet peeve of mine when relationships (which are generally depicted as heterosexual in nature) are shoe-horned in to films that just don't need a romantic element.

    Look at TLJ, Finn and Rose? Really? That is about as shoe-horned as a supposed romance can be.
     
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  23. Darth Sith Saber

    Darth Sith Saber Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Are you saying that there wouldn't be a huge division among audience members if there was an explicit same sex romance in a star wars movie? Because if you're saying that, you're wrong. It would cause Disney a huge problem. Besides, why are there no practicing Islamic characters? Are they saying that it's not okay to belong to that group by ignoring them? Not including aspects that *would* cause division or wouldn't fit the narrative in a movie whose audience includes children is not bias - none of my specific protected characteristics (which u won't disclose) are included and I don't feel targeted nor do I feel that it would help star wars or people with my characteristics nor if any other characteristics by including them, and it would just potentially cause an embaressing negative reaction, without improving the movie in the slightest.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  24. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    I'm sure it would. We had people threatening to boycott because of Finn in The Force Awakens. But it's not about audience division or possibly offending people. It's about doing the right thing and making the saga a more inclusive place. And this isn't unfamiliar territory for Disney. A few years back, Good Luck Charlie, a popular children's show on Disney Channel, had same sex parents. Last year, in their Beauty and the Beast remake, LeFou was heavily implied to be gay. Because Disney knows that, long term, this will help them. And I can see that same mentality brought to Star Wars.

    Why aren't there any Christian characters? Because we're in a different universe with different religions.

    Quite possibly. But I don't really care what bigots think, and I don't think Disney does either.
     
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  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    That last sentence sums it up for me. I don’t care what the racists thought about a black stormtrooper, I don’t care what the misogynists thought about Rey and Jyn being lead characters who wear full clothing, and I don’t care what the homophobes think about the LGBTQ characters who have already appeared in books and will likely appear in movies soon. Some opinions just are not worth paying attention to, especially when those opinions are a growing minority. And Disney does know that those opinions are a growing minority, and thankfully they don’t seem concerned about them either.

    And as far as going there about “protecting children,” it’s far more important to protect them from bigotry than from two men or two women holding hands or kissing. It’s far more important to protect them from racism than from the idea that a black guy could be a stormtrooper. It’s far more important to protect them from sexism than from the idea that women can star in a movie, wearing an outfit that does not expose her body for the hell of it, and be physically emotionally strong. And children knowing that the alt-right is unequivocally and objectively bad is very important.

    All the posts about “political divisiveness” in characters assumes that white, male, and heterosexual is the default and any other characterization is “politically divisive,” which is ridiculous and problematic, and “politically divisive” itself.