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Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I have to admit to a measure of irritation where talk of "SW fandom" is concerned, because which fandom is meant by it? Off the top of my head, it could be any of:
    • SW as saga fans
    • SW as continuing adventure
    • OT fans
    • PT fans
    • TCW-Rebels fans
    • ST fans
    • The Falcon
    • X-Wings
    • TIEs
    • Rebels
    • Empire
    • Vader
    • The Emperor
    • Count Dooku
    • ObiWan - PT
    • ObiWan - OT
    • Luke
    • Han
    • Leia
    • That trio as ensemble
    • The droids
    • Poe
    • Rey
    • Finn
    • That new trio as ensemble
    • Ackbar
    • Raddus (yeah, he now has fans - one film only,but damn, he was awesome in it)
    • Fett
    • Jango Fett
    • Mace
    • Yoda
    • Ventress
    • Ahsoka
    • Ezra
    • Thrawn
    And probably a few more terms / subsets could be added too!

    Also, what are the odds that the people who:
    • Disliked female leads in video games
    • Complained about diversity in Marvel comics
    Are the same anti-diversity lot polluting SW fandom? I reckon it's pretty good because they are - wait for it - inter-sectional trolls. Who have had a six-month banquet from an internet media who consider it in their best interests to not only feed, but gorge them on a diet of free publicity. For as long as I've been active on these boards, one convention is: Don't feed 'em.

    True, as long as Facebook and Twitter remain content to allow their sites to be an online wild west, it won't stop, but should this weird process of glamourising them by reporting their doings continue? At what point does posting to raise awareness of their activity in order to combat it cross into giving them the undue attention they crave?
     
  2. Sannom

    Sannom Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2011
    I love that you're telling us this with, as your handle and I assume your avatar, the founder of Dorn's Angry Boys In Black, who are the poster boys of hatred, eternal crusaders and grand purgers of river dolphins and other abominations like people with heterochromia or a protuding belly button. That is amazing!

     
  3. DarkEagle

    DarkEagle SWC Muggles Draft Commissioner star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2009
    Oh, I think they've been getting off on that notoriety for several years now (SW is just the current "hot-topic" that happens to widely appeal).

    Unfortunately, news-worthy material is still going to make the news (eg mass shooters, public suicides) despite the negative consequences of doing so.
     
  4. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    I'm so depressed by this manifesto thing going around. I mean I'm depressed anyway but

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  5. Supreme Leader Woke

    Supreme Leader Woke Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Fear is the path to the Dark Side.[face_dunno]
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  6. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    There are a lot of reasons out there to be depressed, but if by manifesto you mean that thing that looks like the Declaration of Rebellion done by a pre-schooler, I would not consider it one of them. Frankly just deserves a mocking laugh and move on.

    (BTW, when the hell did these guys start regarding Dave Filoni as anything other than the antichrist?)
     
  7. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    As a person of color and a fan of Star Wars it's super duper depressing to me that this fandom isn't a place I can reliably get away from the sickness afflicting the rest of...everything. The scapegoating of diversity, the whole idea of "forced diversity," the assertions that Kathleen Kennedy and Disney don't actually care about the quality of the films but are instead just "pushing an agenda" all reinforce the idea that certain people just aren't welcome, that it's somehow offensive or inappropriate if I get excited about inclusion, that there's only one kind of Star Wars fan. I mean these ideas have always existed, even in fandom, but I've spent my whole life hoping things would get better - investing in stories like Star Wars - and watching real gains get made...and now it's just so sad and scary to see how much traction these ideas really have. Star Wars content on YouTube and Instagram is absolutely full of this crap all of a sudden. And yeah, writ large that's what's going on politically in the US and Europe but this feels so personal because it's where I live.

    I appreciate the sentiment, @Vthuil, and I know you're coming from a supportive place with the best of intentions, but it's hard to keep laughing, keep mocking, keep moving on.

    But like I said I'm already down and I'm sure this has only penetrated because the kids at the border and Kennedy retiring and the Courts upholding the "Muslim ban" have already taken out the planetary shield generator protecting my soft delicate insides.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  8. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Well, I mean, my response would be "the *******s aren't just showing up, they've always been here", but I can see how that wouldn't necessarily be a comfort. [face_plain]
     
  9. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    No, of course, I mean...I've been posting in this thread same as you for years so I've seen that for sure. it's just with everything going on...

    I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention to devalue your outreach. I really do appreciate it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  10. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Eh, I mean, I totally get that being able to see this sort of thing as "just" contemptibly laughable stupidity is partly a privilege thing. I hate these people, but I understand that they have less of an effect on my life than yours.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  11. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    I’ve been struggling with this a lot myself. I’m just not temperamentally a very confrontational or pessimistic person and I believe very strongly that people screaming at each other doesn’t help anything—but who can say how I’d feel if I’d led a harder life? The bottom line is, no one wants to hear a white guy tell them to calm down right now, so it seems like my only options are to become someone else or just keep my mouth shut and watch the chaos unfold.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I think it is important for those of us who are white to be upstanders and speak out against discrimination, but I also think it’s important that we listen when people of color are telling us how we can help, instead of just stepping in with the ways that we think would be most helpful.

    On a slightly different note, I can’t even begin to explain how much I appreciate men who stand up for women’s rights and take the side of those of us who are in the fight—because without men who are willing to do this, it is easier to dismiss us as angry hotheaded emotional (insert derogatory term for feminist here).

    Any civil rights fight needs advocates who are among the groups in more privileged positions.
     
  13. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    Where RL politics and civil rights are concerned, I 100% agree. What’s tricky is that the lines are getting very blurry between the alt-right, f.e., and people on YouTube ranting about TLJ—because 99 times out of 100, the latter stem from the former. It’s hard to see any argument as unworthy of absolute engagement because that underlies everything now.
     
  14. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I tend to avoid movie commentary on YouTube because that has been my experience—there was one exception that someone posted in the LFL forum that didn’t look so terrible but overall, when I see “check out this YouTube video for criticism of TLJ,” I assume the criticism is going to have “SJW,” “agenda” or “forced diversity” in it—and I write it off as an opinion not to be taken seriously.
     
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  15. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Although things are more confrontational now on the diversity front, at least there is a Diversity Front. It used to be something nobody talked about. For instance, if people found out you were a female, people asked... weird questions... sometimes by PM. As if women thought like aliens or something ("as a women, what is your opinion on...[something random in the EU]"). I distinctly remember an argument I got into with one of the old Lit mods in a thread, who kept talking about how unrealistic it was for women to have military roles like they do in Star Wars. He claimed it was unnatural and "proven" that women are most happy staying at home with their children, and that's why women are so depressed today.[face_plain]

    Yay old Lit.

    So yeah, I'd welcome a SJW battle over "get back in the kitchen".
     
  16. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Oh dear.
     
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  17. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Honestly, I take the complete opposite view on this - if there's one guideline that can be applied to interacting with fascists in general, it's do not give them any respect.

    (Admittedly, I am speaking as a fairly confrontational and cynical person.)
     
  18. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    And that is a triple Death Star hit!

    Much as I want to, I'm not sure what to say to help you, but that this thread continues to be active in the right way might be of some support.

    That said it's freaky how ****ed up the world has become on both sides of the pond in just two years. I can't tell you that you don't have reason to fear, because you do. I'm looking at UK society two years on from the referendum vote and it's not a good picture at all, far from it.
     
  19. vncredleader

    vncredleader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Yikes!! I for one agree that SJW battles are the way to go in cases like these. It is hard to be angry so often, but not telling someone they are a sexist, racist, homophobic, bourgeoisie pig to their face, can often be just as harmful to one's well-being. I live with both my parents, who are staunch conservatives, and even if I know that voicing my opinion will lead to yelling I have to get it off my chest. The feeling of not standing up is sometimes worse than the feeling of being in a fight.

    I cannot even imagine that feeling, as someone who is of a group being belittled. Seriously sorry to head how ******* some people on the old lit forums were, hopefully those like myself who are new are a lot more enjoyable to be around
     
  20. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    That's why the first diversity thread was titled "Beating a Dead Eopie"--it was my weird little fixation that nobody cared about. :p

    But you didn't reflexively interpret that stupid Declaration thing as coming from fascists, did you? That's the connection I'm talking about--it's very likely that the guys who wrote that are also MAGA bros, so for us to say "they're morons, just laugh it off" is taken as downplaying fascism.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  21. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    ...The one where one of their first paragraph headers goes on about a "misguided political agenda"? I absolutely 100 percent did.
     
  22. Supreme Leader Woke

    Supreme Leader Woke Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Oops, I feel like I should probably clarify my earlier post:
    My thought process behind the Yoda quote was that the depressing uptick in hatred and bigotry in mainstream discourse has grown out of a transparently close-minded fear of impotence and of the Other.

    That this hateful “manifesto” —alongside the numerous demonstrations of intolerance in the headlines — is borne out of a pathetic fear of inferiority and emasculation, though, doesn’t make it any less dangerous.

    My cavalier use of the word “fear” betrays my privileged status as a white dude in America. I’m disgusted by the legitimization of alt-right beliefs and their introduction into politics and policy-making, but the totally justified fear that POC and systemically marginalized groups experience for their own well-being and for that of their loved ones is not one I have to live with. As a result, my mind was able to associate “fear” with the irrational emotion and not the very real preoccupation with the current political climate.

    I apologize if I gave the impression that I was telling you to toughen up, @BobbaMatt!
     
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  23. DarkEagle

    DarkEagle SWC Muggles Draft Commissioner star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2009
    Foundations of Geopolitics
     
  24. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    I guess that’s why I’m struggling. :p I’ve actually gotten through to people here; this thread has gotten through to people. Not everyone who starts out ignorant and prejudiced stays that way.
     
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  25. EmperorHorus

    EmperorHorus Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2016
    The stupid "SJW agenda", "feminist agenda" complaints are just bad for everyone. It's not just the idiots themselves that are guilty, but everyone who humours them. It's a convenient scapegoat for anyone who wants to disregard and dismiss any legitimate criticism for TLJ --> "you don't like TLJ? You must be a bigot/You're not a true fan". It sounds crazy but I see it everywhere. The pro-Disney/TLJ group are just as bad and intellectually dishonest as most of the anti-Disney/TLJ group.

    If you stop giving these people attention they'll have much less influence, but the anti-social trolling **** being reported on and shoved out everywhere so much that sensible discourse is impossible in most places