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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Yeah, the thing about that Obi-Wan quote? He's kinda... wrong.
     
  2. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    George Lucas: We shouldn't make Kylo Ren so bad. Have Luke swing at Kylo Ren first.

    :)
     
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  3. nancipants

    nancipants Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 16, 2017
    I personally don’t understand how anyone can come away from those training temple scenes thinking Kylo was justified in killing all the other students. Defending himself against Luke? Sure. But once he thought Luke was dead, that’s the time to jump in a ship, get the hell away from there, and comm Leia to say “uh...mom...uncle Luke just tried to kill me.” Not join the genocidal maniac Snoke and the First Order.
     
  4. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Kylo Ren knows the only way to save the galaxy is through the order of EXTRRREEMMMME black uniformed Imperialness!

    *listens to Linkin Park*
     
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  5. Sannom

    Sannom Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Don't some Sikh wear a dagger for religious reasons? I understand that there was a kerfuffle about that in Canada a few years back.

    That, plus the apparent irrelevance of the Knights of Ren, just tells you how little that new academy and its students matter for the people in charge of the franchise.
     
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  6. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    In this clip, we'll see that Anakin is justified in turning to the dark side because Obi-Wan tries to murder him in an elevator.



    Here, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon react to an explosion by trying to murder it, but then decide against it. The monsters.



    The whole reason Ben was in this situation to begin with is he and Snoke had been engaged in an flirty/evil will-they-or-won't-they situation for years.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
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  7. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    I... don't remember anyone here saying that. It'd be insane.
    What I and some others did say is that Luke did indeed contemplate killing his nephew, and we didn't like it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  8. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2003
    I think the confusing bit was Luke jumping at shadows, and I say this as a TLJ fan. I like how they were trying to go for the classic Greek tragedy with the hero trying to prevent a prophecy and ultimately causing it in the process, combined with Yoda's "fear leads to etc" speech, but they missed the pivotal chunk of the plot setting this up. One of the things they always say in film making is to show, don't tell -- Luke mentions he had reasons to doubt Kylo before he went to his room to kill him, and we already know Snoke had something to do with that, but we have no idea what. So what we end up with is no sense of the gravity of the situation. And Luke apparently jumping at shadows.

    Like at least in the case of when Mace confronts Palpatine, we know why. Luke doesn't even bother with arresting, he's just out to kill a kid because the voices in his head showed him scary stuff. We have only a line or two of dialogue suggesting there were tangible clues that lead up to that confrontation, but we don't know what. We don't even see it.

    So now we're left with a bunch of fans claiming Kylo is cool and Luke was a meanie. And lots of Reylo art. Argh.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
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  9. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Jedi reflexively igniting their lightsabers when startled or threatened and then choosing not to use them is par for the course. If Ben hadn't woken up I doubt Luke would be beating himself up about it.

    And, in fact, all those instances in the prequels (not to mention Luke's own comments in TLJ) give us context: it's a defensive reflex, not an attack. Luke is frightened, and goes for his saber, then calms down, but it's too late. Ben wakes up and completely misinterprets the situation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  10. Sigismund

    Sigismund Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2018
    *reads the last few pages*
    well, good thing then that no one here has claimed that
     
  11. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    What Luke did in TLJ completely goes against the Luke we knew in ROTJ. I'm not totally against that. I wouldn't be against seeing Luke's character completely unravelling. But we don't see it, do we? We last see Luke in ROTJ, jump thirty years later and he's just a completely different character. It's a little insulting.
     
  12. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Blame Lucas for not making Episode VII in 1986 for that one. Luke's middle years can only really be told in flashback now, and up until recently flashbacks were a big no-no for the franchise, and there's only a finite amount of storytelling you can do with them without distracting from the more important ongoing story.

    But the thirty-year time gap should imply lots of things have happened and changed since we last saw our heroes, no? I prefer that over ROTS placing each of its surviving characters in exactly the place we'll be seeing them again in nineteen years' time, as if implying absolutely nothing of substance happens in the intervening time. Luke's gone through some stuff, man.
     
  13. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    By itself, there's nothing wrong with this idea, the problem comes in with the degree to which the ST went with it - which is pretty much across the board.

    A new enemy? Things going wrong with the Republic? Luke making an error on restoring the Jedi? To a degree, you'd expect all of those to feature in a new trilogy. What's objected to is the application - totally reborn super-Empire with a super-Death Star. A New Republic that - for some, is so idealistic that it deserves to die - and does. A Solo kid gone so bad that he kills both his father and uncle and lots of other people, who is so far gone Luke considers killing him in his sleep.

    This is probably one of the times when it could really be said: Less is more. A less extreme application of the ideas might well have resulted in a better product.
     
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  14. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2016
    I'd hardly accuse Star Wars of subtlety of ideas.
     
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  15. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Every old dog has to learn new tricks at some point. ;)
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I’m fine with a 30-year time gap, **** happening to the heroes, and a new enemy. In fact, I expect the New Republic to not be perfect. A new government that has just emerged from the defeat of a totalitarian dictatorship, one that has been in place for most of the lives of many of the people in charge of the new government, is going to have no ****ing idea how to govern itself. A new enemy can and certainly would take advantage of that weakness.

    I can even expect some of the much younger crowd in the New Republic government to look at the ensuing chaos and think that dictatorship wasn’t so bad after all, and maybe this time they could do it correctly.

    However...trying to create a storyline about a “radicalized” white male and sending the message that the “radicalized” white male is supposed to be understood or sympathized with by the audience, is a monumentally terrible idea.
     
  17. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Going by all Imperial fanboys out there it seems it was to subtle in its message
     
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  18. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    EDIT: DERP NEVERMIND.

     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think it's important not to surrender characterization to the Nazis either. We've had Kylo Ren before in Legends and he's suffering as well as benefiting from some of the same problems he had there. Basically, the problem with Kylo Ren is not that audiences are meant to sympathize with him. The way of the Jedi is sympathy as well as empathy for the bad decisions of characters be they black men (Lando Calrissian turning the rebels over to Darth Vader), white men (Darth Vader's fall), or fish men (IT'S A TRAP!).

    No, the problem is that Kylo Ren is a concept more than a character right now.

    Han and Leia's kid who TURNED TO THE DARK SIDE.

    We had some explanation as to why in The Force Awakens but The Last Jedi dumps all of that to go with another explanation (he thought Luke was trying to kill him!). There's a difference between sympathizing and JUSTIFYING, though. We can sympathize because Leia clearly loved her son, probably still does albeit at an objectively less level since he murdered her husband.

    The thing is, admiring vader actually does explain why Kylo acts like Kylo. Not so much "believes his uncle tried to off him." He's like Caedus at his worst in that his motivations are inconsistent and incomprehensible because he's not a character yet but a plot device,
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
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  20. Voltron64

    Voltron64 Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2009
    I would consider along the lines of this to be the perfect final fate for Kylo in Episode IX (albeit after a prolonged lightsaber battle with Rey of course).

     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
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  21. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Except Ben's already turned to the dark side by the time Luke has his Very Bad Day. That isn't Kylo's start of darkness, it's just a pretty big decider to perhaps quit admiring Vader from afar and actually start claiming one's birthright like the creepy old corpse keeps telling one.

    He's a troubled lad who thinks his parents shoved him off to boarding school because he has temper tantrums, and his uncle made it worse. I don't see that as especially incomprehensible, and I think at the very least we can sympathize with some of his frustrations.
     
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  22. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Eh, my issue is how do we get from Draco Malfoy with Harry Potter's parents to joining the Death Eaters.
     
  23. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2016
    He Who Must Not Be Named already whispering words of temptation in Draco's ear since he was born would do it, surely?
     
  24. Sannom

    Sannom Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2011
    I am note quite sure that I agree with this... the connection between Rey and Kylo isn't nearly as strong and loaded as the one between the Red One and the Bearded One. Plus they already had that confrontation in Snoke's throne room, complete with the Dark rejecting the Light's offering of peace and redemption, even when the Light's intentions were a good deal clearer! And I know it is petty, but I wouldn't like parallels being made between those pairs when Kylo had a downright peachy life compared to the life of the last son of Dathomir! At Kylo's age when he betrayed his fellow students, that dude had already been raised by Sidious, tortured, forcefully fed ashes and left for dead!
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    No, but I didn’t buy that excuse for Anakin either. Yes, Palpatine was blowing sunshine up his ass, telling him that he was special and that nobody else “got” him, from the time he was nine. And he was a slave and therefore far more privy to wanting someone—anyone—to flatter him than Kylo should have been. But Anakin should have still listened to Obi-Wan, and when Palpatine stopped making sense halfway through ROTS, it was even less comprehensible that Anakin listened to Palpatine.
     
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