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Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Goodwood

    Goodwood Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2011
    Sorry to further smack a dead horse, but I'd like to inquire after the idea of just using OCs in an implied homosexual relationship, where one or the other might simply refer to "my wife/husband" (depending on gender pairing) when discussing something or other. I can think of plenty of ways to have a Star Wars story involving a homosexual couple, if not a homosexual couple as the main protagonists, without once mentioning sex or even really implying it. Marriage is quite enough.
     
  2. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    As a fanfic author here, here's the official tf.n fanfic guidelines for pairings:


    On ff.n it seems "slash" is usually male/male explicit sex stories (what goes where and how it sounds, etc.). Granted, a pretty fair number don't fall into explicit but still often go a bit further than fade to black.

    "Not slash" stories are buddy-buddy stories, so for example a Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan not slash story has no romance between the two characters - and as mentioned, I think this is because "technically" the / between the names IS where the "slash" in slash stories came from.

    Here on tf.n due to space issues story titles often have a X/Z indicator in them, or X/Y/Z to indicate who the main characters are.

    And also, as has been brought up numerous times here on tf.n, a private board, the owner(s) want to keep the board "family friendly" and PG rated - swearing is restricted, violence is restricted and romance is restricted (full details in the fanfic FAQs as to what is allowable).
     
  3. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    The spelling of "Gungans" needs corrected. :p

    And I love the interspecies rule as it allows Zuckuss/Toryn Farr. :3
     
  4. The_Forgotten_Jedi

    The_Forgotten_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 12, 2010
    Wait... so Yoda isn't a humanoid because he was made by puppets and CGI? That's rather silly.
     
  5. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    Wow, that is some serious FCC-grade BS. Even forgetting the gay thing entirely--it blows my mind that someone actually had to sit down and spell out the exact biological characteristics demarcating "suitable" and "unsuitable" relationships. Anthropomorphic dog person? Fine. Dog person who walks with his arms? That **** ain't right.
     
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  6. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2004
    In other words, if you can cosplay it, it's okay. :p

    Makes me wonder about otters... would they have to be CGI or not?

    And let's not get started on the things Jaina got up to with Killiks...
     
  7. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    Didn't they originally stick a little person in a Yoda suit for that one walking shot in TPM? Does that make him suddenly more acceptable as one's romantic partner? What portion of a character's screen time needs to involve a human actor before my character is allowed to date them? [face_dunno]

    Or, conversely, are little person/normal-sized person relationships themselves not "suitable"? What about double amputees? Quadruple amputees? What percentage of the human body must remain in place for someone to be acceptable romantic fodder? Or is it by volume? Surface area? Inquiring minds want to know!
     
  8. Goodwood

    Goodwood Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2011
    QFT.

    Generally-speaking, I don't like to go to forums and tell other people how to run their site; it's presumptuous and unbecoming. But in all honesty I have to wonder how old this policy is, and whether or not it has ever been reviewed since its original implementation. The fact that it skirts the core issue of gay relationships and why they're banned, by accusing all such pairings of being for the sole purpose of literary trolling is, frankly, barbaric. Of course, I could just be taking the extreme interpretation of that specific clause.

    What if I were to come up with a mono-gendered species that all happen to "look" female? Would the depiction of a "normal" relationship for those people be disallowed on TF.N? What if there was a species that could mate with any other species and still have kids, would that be banned as well?

    As the Vulcans like to say: Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
     
  9. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    As a rule, I, um, have found you can stretch a lot in a parody/whacky comedic story where no one takes the pairing seriously.

    The point is, like it or not, this is not OUR forum, it is the owner's and he can make what rules he wants. There's folks periodically protesting the swear word bans (and there's a few words included that are somewhat commonly seen elsewhere and not all that extreme); there's folks who protest the limitations on violence, and there's those who protest the limits on gender to gender relationships or inter-species pairings.

    I don't know much about the owner, but from what I gather he is on the socially conservative side and if he wants to run this per his beliefs, well, all that can be done is to periodically push a bit and see if his views may have evolved over time.

    One step to evolution is to change society's views - and as has been so eloquently argued in this thread, that means more diversity in our culture's media. I'm old enough to remember the push for inclusion of minorities in TV commercials, for women to be more than male accessories or pearl-wearing advice-giving mothers and man, the growth in "humanity" from the 60's to now is just fantastic.

    Revolutions are won, sadly, over time, regardless of actual "battle victories" because true revolution is to win over your former opponents, not just "conquer" them.
     
  10. rumsmuggler

    rumsmuggler Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2000
    I was thinking along the line of feeding him to a large and hungry beast.
     
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  11. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    You know, I just finished making that exact point elsewhere on the forum. Luckily, there's no rule against mocking the rules for being absurd.
     
  12. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Shh. Don't give them ideas.
     
  13. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    And...? :p Repetition is not necessarily bad. Think of me as your back up on this point. [face_batting]

    And this thread is of course perfect for mocking and for urging change.
     
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  14. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    Wasn't arguing with you, just pointing out the interesting contrast.
     
  15. Adrian the Cool

    Adrian the Cool Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    The term "humanoid", in real life and all fictional universes I know, means having a main body with on head it's top, two legs under the body that are being used to walk and two arms at the shoulders. Size, proportions, hands, feet, face etc. don't matter in this case. So, Yoda is humanoid and Cyborg Grievous, too, except when he splits his arms into two.

    I don't write fan fiction, but I think the distinction between "Non-Human/Non-Human" and "Human/Non-Human" (I don't want to use the humanocentric term "alien") is rather humanocentric. Why should it be considered OK to pair a member out of any of 20 million sentient species (according to Essential Atlas) with a member of any another from those 20 mio. species, except one species, Humans, allowed to be paired with species akin to them somehow only?

    So, you can pair a Hutt with a Bothan or Mon Calamari, no matter if Hutts don't resemble Bothans and Calamari in any way, but it's not allowed to pair a Hutt with Human, because they don't resemble each other?
     
  16. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    I mean, banning human/alien relationships altogether is at least a neurosis I can get my head around. But implicit in this rule is the notion that a child reading fanfic about humans and Dugs dating--not having sex, mind you, just being romantic with each other--would have their state of mind disturbed in some way, but a human and an Arcona? Totally fine. A human and a Givin? Bring it on.

    Hell, you could get a person into a Verpine costume if you really wanted to...
     
  17. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2004
    So, about this "the character must be played by an actor" thing...

    [​IMG]
    Givins? Someone should get on the phone and get that stuff banned in case it encourages necrophilia!
     
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  18. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    I could sit here all day and list utterly horrifying "humanoid" species. Mon Calamari? Sakiyans? Herglics? Chevin? There was literally a guy in a Chevin costume in RotJ. Our illustrious owner is more cool with that than he is with two dudes?
     
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  19. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Apparently.

    Beyond that, I cannot speak for the site owner.
     
  20. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2010
    I would hope fanficers would avoid having Yoda shipping stories on the grounds that he's Yoda.

    This is what surprises me. I was previously unaware of this sites rule on not allowing same-sex relationships of any kind in fan fic, and like most others, I'm flabbergasted. More confused than annoyed, honestly, since I can't fathom why one would place such an arbitrary restriction.

    I'm perfectly fine with banning erotica material; that's at least understandable on some rational level. But banning even an implication of a same sex marriage is flat out bigotry. I'm not sure there's anything in greater opposition to the spirit of science fiction than bigotry.
     
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  21. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2007
    You seem to fathom quite well, actually.
     
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  22. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2010
    I fathom that it sucks, not why people continue to suck :p
     
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  23. Rilwen_Shadowflame

    Rilwen_Shadowflame Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2005
    "Young once I was too, hm?":p
     
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  24. Skaddix

    Skaddix Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Near Human gets sued too much. In my book anything that looks like a real world human should be classified as Human so if you have high force sensitivty, color blind, etc should all be humans.. Chiss and the like our Near Humans so Blue skin and pink skin etc. Anything that is Bipedal is Humanoid.
     
  25. Random Comments

    Random Comments Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2012
    No. Just no.


    Agggh!