I'm sorry, but I just have to say.....

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by DarthPaul77, Feb 1, 2005.

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  1. Professor Moriarty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 1999
    star 5
    I don't think that anybody here is crapping on TPM, we're just talking about it as being non-relevant if you really stop and think about it...
  2. Professor Moriarty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 1999
    star 5
    Think about Darth Maul. He is supposedly a major villain, but only gets about about 5-7 minutes of screen time tops in the whole 2 hour+ movie. I think I'm even being generous with that estimate. No need... :confused: Note that I like this movie, but the more I read about storytelling and screenwriting it just seems to fall short.
  3. Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2004
    star 4
    Professor Moriarty - You have been very busy today. I was initially disappointed in the fact that Darth Maul, who I think most will agree is a brilliantly conceived character, was essentially a supporting figure in "The Phantom Menace". I was frustrated that he wasn't a more significant presence in the film, and was essentially reduced to being Darth Sidious' lackey. Then, I realized that that was, in fact, the point. It isn't poor plot construction or a lack of character development, especially when you consider that the character was not meant to be viewed in terms of "dimensions", but rather as a symbolic figure whose greater meaning becomes clear only when contextualized within the larger mosaic (think "Saga"). I think that Maul, not unlike Dooku in 'Episode 2', was meant to be a symbolic manifestation of the Dark Side, particularly as it applies to and mirrors the descent of Anakin Skywalker. Additionally, the introduction of Maul serves to set up the "rule of two".
  4. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    He is supposedly a major villain, but only gets about about 5-7 minutes of screen time tops in the whole 2 hour+ movie. I think I'm even being generous with that estimate.

    Supposedly according to what? The only thing that matters is the film and the film is quite clear that he is NOT a major character. And villains do not have to have major screen time to be effective. Count Orlock doesn't really get all that much screen time in Nosferatu, yet he is effective.

  5. Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2004
    star 4
    That is a very good argument, Strilo. Another example of a memorable movie villain with relatively little screen time is Orson Welles' Harry Lime from "The Third Man" (1949). He is virtually absent from the first half of the film, despite being the subject of much dialogue, and then appears in a dramatic fashion midway through the film, sort of like.......Dooku in 'Episode 2". Hmmmmmm.......;)
  6. STUBRIS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2001
    star 4
    I can't agree with TPM being explained away in an opening crawl.It was vital that we saw Anakin as a child free from the fear & desire that haunt him in later life.Whenever i see Vader now I always think of that little boy running around Tatooine with no inhibitions, not even begrudging a life of slavery!....Plus Qui-Gon was a CLASS character!
  7. Lucky_Luke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2004
    star 2
    DarthPaul77 Maybe you should start the Gusher Sanctuary: TPM (if there isn't already such a thing) in the SW community forum. :)

    LL :)
  8. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    I don't think so. The TPM forum is the correct place for threads pertaining specifically to TPM.

  9. Professor Moriarty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 1999
    star 5
    "I can't agree with TPM being explained away in an opening crawl.It was vital that we saw Anakin as a child free from the fear & desire that haunt him in later life.Whenever i see Vader now I always think of that little boy running around Tatooine with no inhibitions, not even begrudging a life of slavery!....Plus Qui-Gon was a CLASS character!"


    That's what I'm saying, though. If any of you are spoiler privvy to ROTS, it will be quite a let down to see Qui-Gon go out to a lackey. I'll stop talking now. I really do like TPM, it's just that if I think about it too much it starts to seem flawed...
  10. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    When you think about it thouroughly, you start to realize it's actually very well thought out, and no more flawed than what happens in the other SW movies.
  11. jedi_master_is_back Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2004
    star 1
    "I can't agree with TPM being explained away in an opening crawl.It was vital that we saw Anakin as a child free from the fear & desire that haunt him in later life.Whenever i see Vader now I always think of that little boy running around Tatooine with no inhibitions, not even begrudging a life of slavery!....Plus Qui-Gon was a CLASS character!"

    Yes this is exactly what I feel.

    We see Anikan as an innocent young boy, who we all know eventually turns into a Jedi killing machine.

    Think about it. It has great significance and that is what I love about Ep1!

    Think of Hitler he too was a young innocent boy.

    Can you now see the importance. We are seeing a trajedy unfold over three movies

    Innocent-evil, over three movies its a trajedy story and it is very well told. Something that will never be done in Hollywood ever again.

    And Qui-Gon was awesome, I missed his presence in Episode 2.

    Episode 1 is better than ANH, ROTJ and AOTC in my view. Watching Episode 3 will only reveal more of
    Ep 1's greatness.
  12. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Watching Episode 3 will only reveal more of
    Ep 1's greatness.


    Not true. Ep. 3 will reveal the PT's greatness and how the whole Saga works so well :D


  13. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I think TPM is very underrated and the bashing that it receives is way out of proportion to its faults.

    While it probably would have benefitted Lucas to direct a couple of smaller features -- to warm up, as it were -- before helming TPM, I think, overall, his directing job is quite good, especially for someone who'd been out of practice for two decades. I also think TPM marks some of his best, and subtlest, work since "American Graffiti."

    I rank the SW movies as follows:

    1. ESB
    2. TPM
    3. ANH
    4. AOTC
    5. ROTJ

    The bottom three often fluctuate amongst themselves depending on my mood, and IMO, most of AOTC's flaws lie in the dreadful editing. But the top two don't budge. ROTS may change that, of course, but I'll just have to wait and see.
  14. BauconBatista Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2004
    star 4
    it probably would have benefitted Lucas to direct a couple of smaller features -- to warm up, as it were -- before helming TPM

    Very much true.
  15. G-FETT Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    Regarding the debate about how TPM is pointless because very little actually happens;

    I actually think thats the point of the movie. I look at TPM and the world it conveys as kind of like looking back at Europe during the 1920's. You know, very little happened in the 1920's, but before you can truely understand what Europe lost with the arrival of Nazism, you have to understand what a sophisticated and cultured society it was before. You have to understand that the event that brought Hitler to power in the first place was the Wall Street Crash and the following Global Recession. And perhaps most importantly, you need to understand that it was the people of Europe that gave away their power. Germany wasn't invaded and taken over by Hitler and his forces, instead it was the people themselves, fed-up with their lot, who gave their freedom away.

    In much the same way, TPM is important because it shows there was a time (a long time infact) that the Sith didn't control the Senate. The Galaxy was a peaceful, sophisticated place, but thanks to corruption and lies, that galaxy was given away to the Sith by the people themselves. It's only by seeing what the galaxy was like before the Sith, that we can truely realise what was lost and what the Rebellion are fighting for, in the later episode's.
  16. Wesyeed Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2005
    star 4
    TPM is the Wackiest Star Wars movie. I'm glad you like it.
  17. Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2004
    star 4
    He did plenty of movies during the 80s as "warmups" - sadly, alot of them were bombs. (Howard the Duck, anyone?) Thus, I was happy when TPM came out - not just because I was a SW fan, but because the first film out by him in awhile that I thought was good. TPM gets alot of bashing that it doesn't deserve. It's a flawed movie like any other, sure, but it has plenty of good points, too. It's a shame so few people are willing to recognize it and just mindlessly bash it. (Something I could never understand. $8 movie ticket and there is nothing you can find to validate buying it?)

    But regarding a few other points in this...

    One, on the topic of this movie's "purpose." I know alot of people argue that ROTS is really the only movie that the prequels need in order to set up for OT, but I've never been found of that statement. If that were true, if we're to say the only thing worth watching is the climax of a story and it's ultimate resolution, than everything except ROTJ is really pointless as well. Why build up Luke Skywalker's character if we eventually know he's going to become a Jedi? Because that's what makes it worth watching, the progression of a character from the beginning of a journey to the end. The prequels provide the same backdrop for Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi, who wouldn't be half as interesting or complex without the intricate history of TPM and AOTC to support who they are and what they became.

    Personally, I don't know about any of you, but I find Vader to be alot more sympathetic with the background the prequels provide than I ever did before. I always liked Vader, sure, but his redemption in ROTJ was something that I just shrugged over, to a certain degree, because I didn't know who Anakin had been. I didn't really come to love his character until we actually knew who Anakin Skywalker was. Then I got to appreciate someone who was complex, emotional, and empathetic, albeit deeply flawed and psychologically damning.


    2 - On the subject of Darth Maul, has it occurred to anyone that his memorable appearance in TPM may very well reflect a *success* in terms of his character? Here's somebody that was never meant to be more than a metaphorical representation of one aspect of the Dark Side, an almot plot device to introduce both the Jedi and audience to the reemergance of the Sith, yet who purely through physical and visual presence has made such an impact on the audience that they desperately want to see more of him? That's quite an interesting development. I can't see how a character is a failure is he garners so much interest with so little screen time. :)
  18. Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 4
    It's no action packed movie-DarthPaul77

    It isn't?? I can remember quite a lot of action going on:
    Battle and escape from the Droid Control Ship
    Swamp run and STAP attack
    Gungan Sub scenes
    Saving the Queen and her folk and escape from Naboo
    The Blockade run
    The Podrace
    Desert duel
    Naboo Gungans vs. Trade Federation battlefield scenes
    Padmé and the Naboo forces trying to capture the Nute Gunray
    Anakin and the space battle
    Duel Of The Fates

    Darth Maul was just one of Sidious several apprentice(s?).
    The ones we know:
    Darth Maul (died)
    therefore Dooku became his apprentice
    Anakin will replace Dooku as he is much stronger (Sidious can feel that)
    Darth Vader however isn't as strong as Anakin used to be and therefore the Emperor wants
    Luke to become evil by killing Vader

  19. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    I feel the same way about The Punisher film but I don't feel the need to apologise for it. ;)
  20. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    He did plenty of movies during the 80s as "warmups" - sadly, alot of them were bombs. (Howard the Duck, anyone?)

    Chaotic, Lucas didn't direct HtD. Nor did he write it. In fact, he had no creative involvement in it. He exec produced it as a favor to his friends Willard Hyuck and Gloria Katz.

    TPM gets alot of bashing that it doesn't deserve. It's a flawed movie like any other, sure, but it has plenty of good points, too. It's a shame so few people are willing to recognize it and just mindlessly bash it. (Something I could never understand. $8 movie ticket and there is nothing you can find to validate buying it?)

    While I think many people do have some legitimate complaints about it -- and I have some myself -- I really don't think it warrants the bashing it receives.

    But regarding a few other points in this...

    One, on the topic of this movie's "purpose." I know alot of people argue that ROTS is really the only movie that the prequels need in order to set up for OT, but I've never been found of that statement. If that were true, if we're to say the only thing worth watching is the climax of a story and it's ultimate resolution, than everything except ROTJ is really pointless as well.


    Good point, although some would argue that only ESB is necessary because "all the good stuff" happens there.

    Why build up Luke Skywalker's character if we eventually know he's going to become a Jedi? Because that's what makes it worth watching, the progression of a character from the beginning of a journey to the end. The prequels provide the same backdrop for Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi, who wouldn't be half as interesting or complex without the intricate history of TPM and AOTC to support who they are and what they became.

    Personally, I don't know about any of you, but I find Vader to be alot more sympathetic with the background the prequels provide than I ever did before. I always liked Vader, sure, but his redemption in ROTJ was something that I just shrugged over, to a certain degree, because I didn't know who Anakin had been.


    While I always found Vader's redemption touching, now I find it even more so.

    I didn't really come to love his character until we actually knew who Anakin Skywalker was. Then I got to appreciate someone who was complex, emotional, and empathetic, albeit deeply flawed and psychologically damning.

    Same here. :)

    2 - On the subject of Darth Maul, has it occurred to anyone that his memorable appearance in TPM may very well reflect a *success* in terms of his character? Here's somebody that was never meant to be more than a metaphorical representation of one aspect of the Dark Side, an almot plot device to introduce both the Jedi and audience to the reemergance of the Sith, yet who purely through physical and visual presence has made such an impact on the audience that they desperately want to see more of him? That's quite an interesting development. I can't see how a character is a failure is he garners so much interest with so little screen time.

    Myself, I never got the fuss about Darth Maul. Sure he looks cool. So what? He's minor and disposable. He fulfills his purpose, then dies.
  21. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    DarthPaul77 Maybe you should start the Gusher Sanctuary: TPM (if there isn't already such a thing) in the SW community forum.

    Well, there is a TPM Defense Force in SWC.
  22. JediDJ1013 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2005
    star 1
    "I never understood why so many people said they were let down"

    people bashed it IMO because their expectations were TOO high...myself included. When I first saw the movie, I felt let down because for months leading up to it I kept telling myself "this is gonna be a great movie, this movie is gonna be the best" and when it wasn't, the disappointed was even greater.

    that being said, going back and watching it later, it definetly was a better movie than people give it credit for. of course it wasn't perfect, but AOTC was better IMO and I anticipate ROTS will be even better. (but I just hope I'm not setting myself up again! [face_laugh] )
  23. Darth Kruel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2000
    star 4
    TPM was a kiddie movie. It was geared towards the kids. I've never had any problem with it. In fact, I've always appreciated the movie myself.
  24. General_Dodonna Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 2
    I just watched TPM last night for the first time since I walked out of the theater disappointed in 1999. It was amazing how little I remembered (especially since I'm such a huge fan of the OT and have a very sharp memory), so I basically watched the film fresh.

    I must say that I agree with the consensus here. When I first saw the film in 1999 I must've been twelve or thirteen, ripe age to enjoy it, but I had been a pretty hard-core Star Wars fan for years, so I had just as high of expectations as some of you did. I must say that I didn't enjoy it then, but I do enjoy it now.

    There were things that I didn't like, but they were mostly minor quibbles. Most of my criticisms had to do with the "I would have done it this way" gene, symptomatic among Star Wars fans. I would've developed the relationship between young Anakin and Obi-Wan a little more, and actually focused even more on the relationship between Anakin and his mother.

    However, Lucas did something very clever (which he also did with ANH), and that was start the film in the middle of the action. Aristotle once wrote that all successful tragedies and plays begin in the middle of the conflict, and TPM was no different. It took me some time (as I'm sure it did the rest of the audience) to figure out what was going on, but this only heightened my interest.

    Of course, some things seemed gimmicky, but what I think Lucas was trying to do was create a cinema experience similiar to what 10-12 year-olds enjoyed with the first Star Wars installment in 1977. Someone on the Classic Trilogy Boards made the wise comment that perhaps Lucas wanted these films to grow with their audiences. I think there may be something to that.

    Regardless, TPM is a fun film with some great new characters (although the Yoda puppet sucked), especially Qui Gon, who was played wonderfully by Liam Neeson.
  25. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Thats good to hear that you enjoy it now...

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