I'm Starting a JA Run-On Story- Please Add On!

Well, obviously they can, but should they. I finally got my hands on a bootleg of TPM. I'll have to wait until Septemebr 30 to see it in the theatre, but I was wondering about Qui-Gonn Jinn's morals when he lied to Wattoo about winning the Pod Racers in a game of chance and then cheating Wattoo in rolling the dice.
He also tried to use the Force into tricking Wattoo in accepting credits, it's a bit like:
- we accept no credits cards
- credits cards will do fine
- we accept no credit cards
- credit cards will do fine
If they don't accept, they don't.

What do you guys think about lying and cheating as a Jedi?

 

I think if you have the power, use it to it's full extent. But don't use it all the time. Just use it when you really need it or when your heart tells you. BTW, what are doing with a bootleg of TPM? Anyways, you're still going to see it in the theatres, right?

 

Of course they can lie and cheat for the greater good. If you disagree that would be the same as saying that lying to Hitler to save a life would be wrong, etc.

Jedi kill bad people too, thats why they carry lightsabres. Obviously they use their powers and weapons for KNOWLEDGE AND DEFENSE (of others as well), never for ATTACK.

If the Jedi's were Mother Teresas they would have turned the other cheek and gotten sliced/shot up by Darth Maul, Darth Vader (Luke), Jabba the Hut's goons etc.

Even the good guys get their hands dirty...what matters is whats in your heart.

 

Jedi Master 808, of course I am going to the theatre to see it, but I have to wait until September 30 until it comes out. What am I supposed to do while all you guys can talk all you want and see it as often as you can afford. It's even almost impossible to get some toys around here.

But to get back to the topic, Qui-Gonn is using lies and cheats for his personal benefit (or at least for Amidala) at the cost of Wattoo's expense. If it counts what your heart tells you, aren't your actions the reflection of what IS in your heart? Or can you say, allright I'll kill someone but in my heart I love him??? Come on... that's a lot of BP (Bantha Poodoo).

If a Jedi kills someone in defense, I reckon he does not particularly like it. What are the morals and ethics of these guys anyway?

Knowlegde and defense seems to cover it all: defense is necessary at times to protect the knowledge, but should it be used then to harm the financial position of small independent business men, struggling for survival on a desert planet? I wonder...




[This message has been edited by queeq (edited 07-23-1999).]

 

Ever heard of the phrase: "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". The fact that QGJ tries to trick Watto into accepting the credits is compensated by the fact that 20000 creds is probably far more than what the hyperdrive is worth.

When he moves the chacne cube, it is probably because it is fixed anyway. Watto probably made it to land on the side that he wanted. You'll notice of course that it was Watto's own cube and Watto chose the colours. When he did not get what he wanted, you can see the disbelief in his face. QGJ just cheated the cheater, basically teaching him a lesson.

In ANH, OBK uses persuasion on the stormtroopers. Jedi aren't really supposed to raid people's minds without their permission, but OBK knew that if he had not done that, he would have been forced to kill those stormtroopers and probably a lot more.

In most cases, the use of this sort of cheating is not strcitly for personal gain. There is some sort of morality behind it.

 

Qui-Gon could have just stolen the hyperdrive part he needed...that shouldn't have been too hard for a Jedi. He tried to make Watto a fair offer. And as for "cheating" him, well, Watto didn't have to take the bet now, did he?

Also, the troubles of one independent businessman probably don't add up to a whole planet's worth of people suffering and dying. Yeah it's a tough moral issue (do I lie and cheat to one individual so that I might save millions?) but I guess even Jedi have to resort to underhanded dirty dealing every once in a while.

 

Well, you've got to draw the line somewhere.

 

Another point: The novel indicates that Qui-Gon actually stole the power supply from Watto, in which he gives to Anakin for his pod racer.

Trust me..its in the book

 

So, what about those Jedi morals and ethics. So far you guys are analyzing what Qui-Gonn and why.

I see him lying and cheating in the movie, no he's suddenly stealing stuff in the book.

Do these guys have any morals? If so, what are they? Or is Qui-Gonn a good Jedi gone slightly off the mark? And please don't come up with things like "it matters what's in your heart" or "what it takes to save a million". General Jedi ethics please.

 

Ok, look, jedi don't really have you what you would call an honor code. But there are some dark tendencies that could slip into their head.
Qui, in my opinion, is a no good low down dirty shame (Anti-Qui Movement). He abuses the powers of the force for his personal benefit. The only other time we have seen this is with Obi on Tattoinne. Now, that time was a little different. It meant life or death for many a stormtrooper, plus the fact that they would have blown their relaxed cover. Qui Gon didn't have to lie and cheat Watto. True, Watto was being very dirty and difficult, but Qui's lack of patience takes over and Qui lowers himself to Watto's level and cheats back.

Sorry folks, two wrongs don't make a right.

Other jedi we've seen (granted not many), have been more passive, less aggressive.

 

QGJ didn't do anything wrong. All the Jedi's use mind tricks. Heck, in the Jedi Council, the long necked alien (Yarael Poof) is the master of mind tricks. Jedi only lie and cheat in order to avoid conflict. They are defenders, not attckers.

 

There goes Mini Maul, trying to get attention again.

Queeq, learn to spell correctly. It's Watto not wattoo.

Qui-Gon did what was needed to get the parts in order to repair the ship. What was he supposed to do, wait for Watto to break down and take Republic credits? By then, the Naboo would have been dying by the thousands. So Qui-Gon tried to trick Watto in order to save millions of lives.
"I will do what I must"-Qui-Gon
He tried to get Watto to take Republic credits but he was doing it to save the Naboo. I would have done the same thing.

 

qui-gon02: I thought Jedi operated on a higher plane than "the end justifies the means"

What do I think? I guess everyone feels it's alright for a Jedi to lie and cheat since they make Qui-gon the closest thing to God - (they're worse than the EU authors and Luke) - and Qui gon both lied and cheated.

Notice Luke didn't lie and cheat. And he still got what he wanted.

 

Thanks Crystena77 and I agree with you. Sorry about the zpellink there, it's Wattto (right?).

The Qui-Gonn classification Idon't really share. He's quite selfminded but that's not a bad thing.
But I think Crystena77 makes a good point. This is the reason I started this topic, from Luke (and even Obi-Wan) I got a very different impression about the ethics of the Jedi.

 

I thought I remembered hearing that Qui-Gon was supposed to be a somewhat "rouge" jedi. Several times Obi-Wan refers to Qui-Gon going against the grain or defying the conuncil. I think Qui-Gon comes from the "ends justify the means" train of thought. Also, he was going to pay Watto, just not the way Watto wanted him to. I don't think Qui-Gon is somebidy to look at for a jedi role model.

 

Yes Queeq, even though I can understand why Qui-Gon tricks Watto, his morals and overall motivation are somewhat questionable (Qui-Gon's that is; although Watto's probably are, too. )

Maybe all those Qui bashers have a point...Qui-Gon just seems so single minded, he is almost blind to anything else once he gets an idea in his head. He acts without thinking through the consequences of his actions. Like dumping poor Obi-Wan willy-nilly so that he can train Anakin. Some people might think this kind of focus is commendable, but I think it's too narrow minded.

Sooo...maybe his morals are a bit looser than those of your average Jedi. But I stil like the fact that he tried to get the hyperdrive part from Watto without resorting to violence...he coulda just pulled out his sghtsaber, sliced Watto in half, and stolen the parts he needed.

 

Absolutely queeg and 77....

People who still wonder why Qui-Gon doesn't fade away (why he needs to be burned - a purification ritual) need to read this thread.

 

Obi-Wan disappeared because he learned how to do it. He was the first to do it. You wont be seeing any dead Jedi disappearing in Ep II or III. The suprise Vader had when Obi-Wan disappeared should have mad that clear that he had never seen that before, and If anyone had seen Jedi die, it was Vader.
If moral purity did determine whether a Jedi fades or not, consider this:
Obi-Wan deliberately lied to someone in order to incite him to kill his own father. He didn't have to mention Darth Vader to Luke. He used very inflamitory language, "betrayed and murdered". Compare that to the trivial things Qui-Gon is accused of, and tell me who has the moral purity to fade.
Just remember, Jedi are people with normal failings, and will lie and cheat if they feel the need to, just like you or I. Obi-Wan had reached the conclusion that Anakin was beyond any hope, and for the good of the Galaxy, he must be destroyed. So he set Luke, the only one who could do it, on a course meant to end the life of Darth Vader.

 

This topic has all the sudden become quite large.

I am a cadet of the United States Airforce. THe military follow's a strict honor code of "We will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate anyone who does." NOw that being said - this code is not stronger than the Code of Conduct. This code reminds us that our duty and our mission comes first.

If I were taken prisoner of war- I would give my name, rank, date of birth and use all means available to me- including lying- to avoid giving any other information. If somebody came up to me and asked me for classified information, I should just tell them right? Cause otherwise I would be holding back the truth.

Qui Gon lies to protect a world and his friends. His duty to the galaxy comes first. Do any of you think Watto gives a darn about the rest of the galaxy? "Watto please sell me the part-the fate of a whole world depends on it." Notice how Anikan wins the race fairly? Sebulba cheats and loses-this is the true message of cheating Lucas tries to imply. Qui-Gons actions are justified. There was no other way, not with the time they had.

 

Jedi are not flawless,that's the whole point.If you think about it every single one of them has done something wrong.Qui-Gon,Obi-Wan,Luke,Anakin(he f##,.; up big time),even Yoda.

 

Okay, but Jedi are trained from a very early age. Remember Luke being too old to be trained, and he had to unlearn what he had learned. That's all fine and dandy with someone 18 years old, but even Anakin was deemed to old!!! He is 7 years old in TPM. Normally Jedi are thus being trained from a much earlier age. As defenders of peace and justice "in a more civilised time", one can at least expect some ethics. Luke kept to those ethics, why can't the others.

But even Obi-Wan in his post-mortem appearance has a strange view to truth. Having seen TPM I know where he got it from: Qui-Gon. Have any of you guys ever thought about this line: "What I told you was true, FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW." Obi-Wan learned this from Qui-Gon. I think that is the greatest bunch of Bantha Poodoo. Explaing the truth FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW gives someone the freedom to lie and twist the truth any way he wants. Luke was very justified being very annoyed about this CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW.

So I suppose Jedi have moral codes, but they do not always stick to them. This is true, from a certain point of view.

[This message has been edited by queeq (edited 07-26-1999).]

 

queeq: Anakin is supposed to be 9, not 7.

Just nitpicking

 

queeq: Anakin is supposed to be 9, not 7.

Just nitpicking

 

Queeq, I totally agree!!! A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW. That line has always driven me crazy. A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW...BULL. It's a lie an, out and out lie. Now don't get me wrong, I like Obi-Wan. But the guy lies at the drop of a hat in order to justify his position. Then at the same time he tells Luke not be angry. HELLO!!! It's amazing that Luke didn't turn to the darkside hearing the truth. I think a majority of us, probably would have hit the roof. To me it seems that all jedis lie and cheat to justify their actions.

 

Just wondering if anyone has thought to bring up the point that besides cheating with the chance cube, stealing the power thing, and whatever else has been said, Qui Gon also lies to Ankin. When he checks his midichlorian count and Anakin asks what he's doing he says checking for infection. He told the boy about their mission which he wasn't supposed to do, why not tell him he was checking his blood for midichlorians??? Possibly not to get his hopes up. What do you think?