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ST Immaculate Conception arc

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Gabricjen, Mar 29, 2015.

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  1. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Sorry, I didn't the alert that said you had responded and only saw this by chance. I would have answered sooner.

    No, I didn't say the Force killed her.

    "What does a machine know of the Force and "will"?" means that a droid doesn't understand the Force or the nature of will power. It simply couldn't compute why a "completely healthy" person was dying right in front of it.

    This, along with the editing, supports the theory that Anakin's rebirth as Vader and Padmé's death where connected. Add in the fact that Palpatine says that Plagueis's apprentice learned all his secrets before killing him and that Palpatine is confirmed as being that apprentice, and there is evidence that Palpatine may have been manipulating the midichlorians to use Padmé's life to keep Vader alive - giving Anakin a second life at the cost of the one he loved the most.

    "Bandwagon-jumping" is following the crowd without any firm conviction point of view.

    I'm not jumping on a bandwagon. I simply suggesting what I believe to a very plausible theory based on the actual content of the film.

    The is no "reaching" in the idea that Leia can remember Padmé - nothing in RotS contradicts anything that Leia says in that scene in RotJ.

    Her memories of Padmé are "images... feelings really". Her mother was beautiful, kind and sad. Babies in the womb feel the mother's emotions. A Jedi baby can feel even more. And she died when Leia was very young - which she did.

    The "reaching" here is trying to propose problems in the movies where none exist.

    And how do you know Yoda couldn't sense that something unnatural was happening? His reaction to the news that Padmé was dying could suggest any number of occurrences from just sadness to being downtrodden because he simply couldn't do anything against this power.

    Precisely. ;)
     
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  2. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Seems like you simply choose to ignore Padmé's was also dying in those moments just because it doesn't support your ideas,

    I believe Yoda communes with Qui-Gon afterwards. Regardless, what would you expect Qui-Gon to do about it.

    Nothing in the performances or dialogue in those scenes disputes the theory that Palpatine was manipulating the midichlorians, while the visuals do support the idea.

    It isn't the first time that Lucas doesn't explain an sea or comment on it. He dropped Qui-Gon back into the mix with no explanation in the movies, and only delved into it further in the later TCW arc.


    Actually, you are right there. ;)


    That is rape, I believe.


    Agreed. If Luke does it from a distance with an unwilling female, that is rape.

    If Luke does it with a willing female, that is a bizarre sexual disfunction.

    Neither of those have a place in Star Wars.

    Which bit is "nonsense", Wildcatbarry biblical reference or Gabricjen suggestion that Luke has an unusual sexual proclivity?
     
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  3. Wildcatbarry

    Wildcatbarry Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 23, 2015
    Nice talking with you brother Toon.
     
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  4. Toonimator

    Toonimator Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 16, 2006
    "A Jedi baby can feel even more." Says who? That's not canon.

    Babies in the womb may be able to feel emotions, but not see images of their mother. The way Leia phrased it implies she's maybe a toddler, because babies don't generally form coherent memories. If your mom died in childbirth, as Padme basically did, you wouldn't say "My mother died when I was very young", you'd say "My mother died when I was born" or words to that effect. In 1983 and for years after, who would have guessed that Luke & Leia's mom would die moments after giving birth to them? Nobody.

    A newborn can't see much of anything clearly, let alone register the objects. Their vision is more like Han's in ROTJ: "Instead of a big dark blur, I see a big light blur", so her stating that she remembers her mother being very beautiful, kind, but sad--that doesn't line up at all. Even Princess Leia #2's instance of Leia seeing a portrait of Padme and having a moment doesn't help, because in Lucas' version of events she never knows who her mother is. That's a portrait of a lady she feels some connection to, not the woman she told us about in 1983 that she actually knew for a time.

    George screwed up there. It's a plot hole. Better to have brought the whole "handmaiden/decoy" idea around full circle and had Padme live in Bail's household as Queen Breha's handmaiden, with Leia adopted by the Organas after Padme dies--tho that would've been a little tougher to work into the end of ROTS. That way Leia knows her mother, Padme's identity is disguised to protect her, and we have a woman whose grief, perhaps, is so heavy that it wears on her over a period of years rather than whatever ambiguous crap was really behind her death in ROTS, whether she simply "gave up" and proved to be an utterly weak character because 'reasons' or whether Lucas just failed colossally at showing a direct, tangible link between Vader's birth and Padme's death.

    The fact this theory, that Palpatine caused Padme's death to sustain Vader, only started gaining any sort of notice in the last month or two makes it seem pretty clear that it's not what Lucas intended at all.
     
  5. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 7, 2009
    Jedi have enhanced senses. It is logical that Force sensitive babies have enhanced senses. Anakin and Ezra both used Jedi powers instinctively.

    Are you seriously suggesting that no one in the world would use the words "my mother died was I was very young" if their mother died in child birth.

    That is a bold claim. Can you support it?

    Leia says "images, feelings really" - this doesn't mean she saw anything with her eyes. A vision or a memory of her emotional states as Leia developed in the womb could account for this.

    In 1983, I had no assumptions about the birth of Leia and Luke or the death of their mother. I speculated, but never assumed.

    As I said above, "images, feelings really" does not mean she actually saw her.

    The Princess Leia comic does not contradict anything. Luke is asking about memories of her mother, not a portrait on her wall. And just because Padmé's name is never mentioned in the Original films, doesn't mean that Leia didn't know it. Anakin's name isn't used until Return of the Jedi but we don't see Luke respond to Kenobi with "oh, so that is my Dad's name".

    And criticising the movie and Lucas' "version" because of a comic printed a few weeks ago? Doesn't it make more sense to criticise the writer of the comic for not making his version "fit" to what you say?

    That suggests to me you've become very used to just criticising Lucas when you "blame" for another writers interpretation.

    Padmé manages to hide in the household of a prominent galactic figure and nullifies the entire point of putting Leia into hiding in the first place?

    Please explain how that makes sense but Lucas' version does not?

    You don't know that. It isn't the first time Lucas hasn't explained things - it was almost ten years before years before we found out how Qui-Gon kept his identity after death and why no other Jedi could do it.

    And a theory just because it isn't 15 years old, doesn't make it's ideas any less plausible. It just means that nobody saw it before.

    I don't believe anyone argued against Darwin or Hawkings theories on the basis of "Seriuosly, dude, if that was true we'd have thought of 2,000 years ago".:rolleyes:
     
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  6. dolphin

    dolphin Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 1999
    Uber is of the same ilk as Anakin, born of the Force, except He turned evil.
     
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  7. Wildcatbarry

    Wildcatbarry Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 23, 2015
    That is a very intriguing idea Dolphin.
     
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  8. Toonimator

    Toonimator Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2006
    So... he's Anakin? Born of the Force, turns evil...sounds like Anakin to me.
     
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  9. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    Mr. Qui Gon, sir. I was wondering. How did Darth Sidious know that Padme had died? "It seems in your anger you killed her."
     
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  10. Jcuk

    Jcuk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 16, 2013
    So, how does this question relate to the TFA? Is there a rumour pertaining to a new character having a virgin birth? (Another One??) I'm confused..what's going on? ;)
     
  11. Toonimator

    Toonimator Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2006
    He was making it up, knowing it'd fuel Vader's pain. Or he watched the HoloNet news and Vader's tantrum actually takes place following her funeral.

    Many have said for years now that the events of the end of the film may not happen when we think they do, or in the order they appear... they've speculated that Vader's operation may have lasted a lot longer than it looked (and where the hell did the suit come from? Palpatine just had a Death Mask helmet lying around?). There must have been some time, and plenty of communication, that happened offscreen--you've got Obi-Wan riding up to the Lars homestead, to people he's never met before, and wordlessly handing off a baby, so Obi-Wan must have contacted them to fill them in on the task set for them, even if silently passing off a kid and immediately leaving is still incredibly bizarre; Likewise, Bail must have contacted his wife to say "Good news! We've adopted a daughter. I hope you like her; the pound said they won't take her back." And then there's the Death Star framework being observed by Tarkin, Palpatine, and Vader... given it takes 19 years to become fully operational, it seems unlikely that construction had progressed so far only a couple days after the twins were born.
     
  12. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    The Virgin Birth is right on the nose....considering mythology and the Hero's Journey. Straight from the book(s).

    I think it important to consider HOW the story has been told and only part of it has been told. ACT II was told first. ACT I came after and ACT III should resolve. No longer was all resolved in ROTJ. As Yoda said, "You must unlearn what you have learned."
     
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  13. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    Or, he transferred the midi-chlorians from one to the other. I wonder why Vader wasn't at the funeral? Maybe he was there....that japoor snippet in her hand. Anything can happen offscreen, right? The point....Palpatine's knowledge offers some support and the 'official explanation' is tepid at best. Especially if you're a writer entertaining sequels.

    I agree that time is a warp in narrative, but that works both ways: events can happen faster/slower. I would assume that the events of the last 5 minutes were not terribly twisted out of shape as you suggest.
     
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  14. Jcuk

    Jcuk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 16, 2013
    Do you think if, for arguments sake, Anakin had been portrayed as an everyday kid who had been seemingly blessed with this 'gift that allowed him to speedily anticipate and have remarkable reflexes. Who's father, it transpired, had been killed when he was very young by Tusken Raiders. Could you have seen yourself viewing Anakin differently? And if so, how?
     
  15. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Born of the darkside of the Force. [face_devil]
     
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  16. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    Blessed? By what and/or whom? By the Force? Was he special? If so, why? A biological father, in essence, would have de-mystified Anakin's role. There would be no mystery regarding the Anakin and the Force, ironically. Perhaps Lucas should have done away with the Force in order to make a 'realistic' space fantasy. Or, do we want these elements, but keep them unexplained and mysterious?
     
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  17. Jcuk

    Jcuk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 16, 2013
    His natural skills equate to him being a strong force sensitive. A gift he inherited from either his father or his mother? That question is never answered. But it is clear he's special. A Jedi master in his presence would instantly sense this. Would feel the strength of the force within him. Because his senses are attuned. Yet the Jedi cannot explain why? Anakin is a phenomenon..
     
  18. Lee_

    Lee_ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Yes, we get the picture, and the bit about Jesus is irrelevant in the larger picture- the point is, they were conceived without sex, an idea put on a number of prophets and leaders other than Jesus (whether or not it fits the strict definition of immaculate conception).

    Sorry if someone already said this, I haven't read the whole thread, but I am going to say no, all other children will be born through natural means. The reason Anakin wasn't was IMO because of his "prophet-like" stature as the Chosen One. The immaculate conception was (again IMO, I've never heard Lucas specifically address this) Lucas's way of elevating his status in the same way as others in history/mythology/theology who were (allegedly) prophets or God-like or semi-divine (or actually divine but living as a human, depending on how you look at it).

    Anakin was a prophet of the force so to speak, thus the immaculate conception.
     
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  19. Toonimator

    Toonimator Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2006
    You keep on using these words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean. #Inigo
     
  20. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009

    The thread starter asked whether Luke would have children in the same way - manipulate the midichlorians.

    It was a while before Toonimator commented that this meant Luke would be a deviant.

    The virgin birth has no bearing on TFA and there will not be another.
     
  21. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Many have said for years now that the events of the end of the film may not happen when we think they do, or in the order they appear... they've speculated that Vader's operation may have lasted a lot longer than it looked (and where the hell did the suit come from? Palpatine just had a Death Mask helmet lying around?). There must have been some time, and plenty of communication, that happened offscreen--you've got Obi-Wan riding up to the Lars homestead, to people he's never met before, and wordlessly handing off a baby, so Obi-Wan must have contacted them to fill them in on the task set for them, even if silently passing off a kid and immediately leaving is still incredibly bizarre; Likewise, Bail must have contacted his wife to say "Good news! We've adopted a daughter. I hope you like her; the pound said they won't take her back." And then there's the Death Star framework being observed by Tarkin, Palpatine, and Vader... given it takes 19 years to become fully operational, it seems unlikely that construction had progressed so far only a couple days after the twins were born.[/quote]


    Now who is "reaching"? Padmé's funeral happens after Palpatine tells him she is dead. Claiming the scenes are out of sequence just to suit your point of view is a bit much.

    Yes, the final montage can take place over a long period, and the final shot of the Death Stars must be years later, but it makes no sense to claim they are not in chronological order or that they are out of sequence just to suit your own opinion,

    And Palpatine is not shown getting the information any other way, therefore it is logical that he through the Force - and one possibility is that he knows because he killed her.

    Anakin is a phenomenon in the Prequels. A lot of expectation is placed on him due to the mystery of his creation and it affects him, causing him him to be arrogant, etc. and susceptible to Palpatine's influence.

    How do you achieve that by giving him a father? Why is he so special and so powerful?



    It is a common misunderstanding, but the Immaculate Conception is that Mary was conceived in her mother's womb free of the Original Sin by virtue of her destiny as the mother of Jesus. It isn't the event of the virgin conception itself.

    The rest I agree with. ;)


    Perhaps it would be more helpful if you punted out Lee_ mistake, rather than just claiming "he doesn't know what he is talking about"?
     
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  22. DarthLightlyBruise

    DarthLightlyBruise Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2015
    Kylo Ren's flatmate, Drol Susej?

    [​IMG]
     
  23. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009


    My spelling, combined with Spell Checker, results in disaster. :p
     
  24. Wildcatbarry

    Wildcatbarry Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 23, 2015
    A trinity of Trinities.
     
  25. Gabricjen

    Gabricjen Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2003
    So I agree the Luke virgin birth thing is out of whack. My intention was to believe that he had a child unknowingly through the Force. There would have to have been a mother then.

    As far as Uber and Anakin go... I like the idea that Uber was born of the Force. I would love it even more if we found out that Shmi lied about Anakin's virgin birth.
     
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