Immolation scene

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Alpha-Red, Nov 21, 2005.

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  1. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    I think Lucas was wrong...the scene would actually have worked better if Anakin asked for help. Even if Obi-Wan decided not to help him, that doesn't have to mean that he was evil or selfish for doing so...it could have simply been because he simply didn't trust Anakin anymore at that point. And I think it would have been even cooler to watch the OT knowing that Obi-Wan was partially responsible for how evil Vader turned out to be.
  2. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    well, come with me, SR, all we need is our love. :)

    i blame obi for anakin lashing out. i don't think he would have choked her as such. although, for the record, the chance of having anakin calm down is narrow, but don't you think simply because you know he isn't gonna it's not happening.
  3. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    Frared, ask yourself this:

    If Obi-Wan had not been on board Padme's skiff, how do you think Anakin's conversation would have ended up?

    Padme was not going to side with him.
    She had already made that abundantly clear.
    She could not follow him down his path.

    How do you think a Sith Lord would have taken that...?

    Obi's presence speeded up the process, but make no mistake, Anakin was already going there, because of Padme's stance.


    -JR :)
  4. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    Still around OB1-Jr?

    Happy Thanksgiving to all[:D]
  5. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Frared, ask yourself this:

    If Obi-Wan had not been on board Padme's skiff, how do you think Anakin's conversation would have ended up?

    Padme was not going to side with him.
    She had already made that abundantly clear.
    She could not follow him down his path.

    How do you think a Sith Lord would have taken that...?

    Obi's presence speeded up the process, but make no mistake, Anakin was already going there, because of Padme's stance.


    I agree Obi Wan jr. Kenobi did just speed up the process.

    The problem with Anakin though is that he blames Obi Wan for everything. After being put in the suit it wouldnt surprise me if he puts all the blame on what he did to Padme on Kenobi and maybe was blinkered enough to think he could have persuaded Padme to join him had Kenobi not turned up. Nut case.
  6. PrinceHector Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 2
    Actually, it would be interesting to see what happened to their conversation if Obi-Wan did not show up.

    Padme - Stop! Come back! I love you!!

    Anakin - I love you too..

    Ok, not likely. Can someone help me here?
  7. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Anakin: No, you come back!

    Padme: No you!

    Anakin: You!

    Padme: You!

    *Choking commences*
  8. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    PADME: Stop,stop now,come back, i love you !!!:_|

    VADER: But i dont love you [face_not_talking]

    PADME: *dies of a broken heart in the spot*
  9. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    >>>>The problem with Anakin though is that he blames Obi Wan for everything. After being put in the suit it wouldnt surprise me if he puts all the blame on what he did to Padme on Kenobi and maybe was blinkered enough to think he could have persuaded Padme to join him had Kenobi not turned up. Nut case.

    Oh sure, MS.

    I agree that, on the surface, he probably blames Obi for everything.
    But that deep down, in that anger-ridden furnace of a heart, he understands that this was HIS fault.

    THAT, I believe, is the reason for his heart-felt: "Nooooooooooooooo!" at the end of ROTS.


    -JR :)
  10. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Oh sure, MS.

    I agree that, on the surface, he probably blames Obi for everything.
    But that deep down, in that anger-ridden furnace of a heart, he understands that this was HIS fault.

    THAT, I believe, is the reason for his heart-felt: "Nooooooooooooooo!" at the end of ROTS.


    Absolutely. Let me put it this way - Darth Vader blames Obi Wan. Basically the part of Anakin that is twisted by the dark side is what projects his blame on to others. At the end, when that evil is gone, he see's that he is to blame. Its alsways been there. Its just a case of accepting, or more to the point, being able to accept it.
  11. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    Frared, ask yourself this:

    If Obi-Wan had not been on board Padme's skiff, how do you think Anakin's conversation would have ended up?

    Padme was not going to side with him.
    She had already made that abundantly clear.
    She could not follow him down his path.

    How do you think a Sith Lord would have taken that...?

    Obi's presence speeded up the process, but make no mistake, Anakin was already going there, because of Padme's stance.


    i know that this one of the toughest arguments out there. and i'm not sure i'm all well-prepared. :)

    let's try this: separate your knowledge of the outcome of the scene from the characters' knowledge first.

    then acknowledge that the movie is incredibly rushed, that nearly every decision that is made is incredibly quickly made and justified by very little sitting down and pondering.

    at times while watching i would have liked to step onto the scene and just ask everyone to just chill the **** out.

    so, i'm thinking anakin hardly keeps himself together on mustafar and something would probably have happened. padme talks with him, no weapon drawing, just talking and trying to understand where he is coming from. she doesn't like it and gets more paranoid by the clock when she tells him obi-wan knows. he suspects something. then he sees obi-wan standing there. all his fears of losing her have been confirmed in that instance. all he needs is padme to get herself entangled in her lies so he has a reason to lash out...

    as i said, i might not be entirely convincing. and i do acknowledge that obi-wan seeing anakin choke her is prolly the last straw he needed to *believe* that his best friend has gone to hell in a handbasket.

    but my criticism with the handling in the scene is that he uses her as bait and then also confirms anakin's suspicions. he doesn't know about the latter, granted.

    the chance of other events is very slight because none of the participants in the scene isn't involved. but in the end everyone needed to calm down. and i can imagine calming anakin down is one hell of a task.

    The problem with Anakin though is that he blames Obi Wan for everything. After being put in the suit it wouldnt surprise me if he puts all the blame on what he did to Padme on Kenobi and maybe was blinkered enough to think he could have persuaded Padme to join him had Kenobi not turned up. Nut case.

    he also becomes a nut case, make no mistake, because all his suspicions are confirmed.
  12. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "but my criticism with the handling in the scene is that he uses her as bait and then also confirms anakin's suspicions. he doesn't know about the latter, granted"

    Obi-Wan doesn't use Padme as bait. He didn't encourage her to go to
    Mustafar to confront Anakin. Obi-Wan tried to find out from Padme
    where Anakin had gone [so he could go after him alone], but she
    would not tell. He knew if she left it would be to go to Anakin so
    of course he would stow away on her ship. Finding Anakin was
    imperative, there was not time to wait and rely on some other
    intelligence given the amount of damage Ani was doing in such a short
    amount of time. Ani's suspicions were forged in his now warped mind.
    Neither Padme nor Obi-Wan can be held responsible for Ani's irrational
    thinking at this point.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Anakin would not simply let Padme go, no matter what anyone deludes themselves into thinking. He's selfish and self-centered. If she is not with him, then she is his enemy. Hence getting choked because he thinks that Obi-wan turned her against him. Padme would never be able to walk back to her ship without getting her. He may love her, but he loves his power over her more. He wants to control her. Possess her. Own her. A Sith Lord cannot be rational to the degree that a Jedi Knight is. He would never trust her because she has talked to Obi-wan and he already suspects her and him are in cahoots.

    Obi-wan already knows that Anakin's evil. He's trying to find some other way to stop him without having to kill him. They both know a fight is coming between them, even before they face off on Mustafar.
  14. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    Obi-wan already knows that Anakin's evil. He's trying to find some other way to stop him without having to kill him.

    huh?
    how?
  15. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    >>>>the chance of other events is very slight because none of the participants in the scene isn't involved. but in the end everyone needed to calm down. and i can imagine calming anakin down is one hell of a task.

    Absolutely. Because he has already turned to the dark side, and then a had a real taste of the power. Padme was always on to a loser, because he has already got to the point of thinking he can overthrow Palps and rule the Galaxy, by the time his wife arrives at Mustafaaaaaaar.

    Basically, IMHO, it's his way or nothing.
    Whether Obi-Wan is there or not.


    >>>>he also becomes a nut case, make no mistake, because all his suspicions are confirmed.

    I think he's already well on the way to being a nut case before that point, Frared.
    He's been killing Jedi and kids, and laying into unarmed Separtists for fun, by then.

    That's the reason he lies to Padme when he returns to her apartment after the Temple raid.
    He knows he's lying to her, but he wants to have her, too.
    Needs to have her.

    Or else....


    -JR :)

  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Well there's the hundreds of dead bodies, some of which were killed with a Lightsaber. And the fact that Anakin's a Sith now, doing Palpatine's bidding. The fact that he almost killed his wife. Oh and the ever popular, he sensed the Dark Side in Anakin. Senses that he's evil now. As to avoid having to kill him, that's what he was doing when they were talking. He was trying to talk him out of it. Trying to make him see that Palpatine has been using and abusing him. Trying to make him see that it was Anakin's deeds that turned Padme against him. And Anakin doesn't want to kill him, which is why he says "Don't make me destroy you." Why he doesn't attack him outright like the other Sith Lords would've.
  17. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    >>>>And Anakin doesn't want to kill him, which is why he says "Don't make me destroy you."

    Actually, Sin, he says: "Don't make me KILL you."

    You're mixing up your Vaders.... ;)


    -JR :)

    AKA: Lord Pedantic.
  18. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    huh?
    how?

    - Jedi temple - holorecorder of Ani killing Jedi and younglings.
    Obi-Wan seen this before stowing away to Mustafar so he knows
    Ani is gone.
  19. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    Because he has already turned to the dark side, and then a had a real taste of the power. Padme was always on to a loser, because he has already got to the point of thinking he can overthrow Palps and rule the Galaxy, by the time his wife arrives at Mustafaaaaaaar.

    [face_thinking]
    there used to be a thread on how consumed he is.... very much, i guess.

    my point is, and i guess you've picked that up, that the chance would be there, if someone gave it a shot, but a) when padme does she is interrupted by obi-wan who does make things worse and b) none of them is detached from the events and c) what to do after you've calmed anakin down? i cannot even imagine a possible scenario of dealing with him on a conversational basis.

    so, it's hypothetical, but not altogether impossible, to my mind.

    Basically, IMHO, it's his way or nothing.
    Whether Obi-Wan is there or not.


    obi-wan does make a difference. no mistake. if only in the way he dispatches her maybe, but it does make a difference. i think he's testing her with 'because of obi-wan?' and she, not knowing she's been used as bait, cannot react appropriately.

    I think he's already well on the way to being a nut case before that point, Frared.
    He's been killing Jedi and kids, and laying into unarmed Separtists for fun, by then.


    [face_blush] hm, yeah, i guess. but even sociopaths usually get the chance to be heard. this one doesn't get it.
    ho hum.
    by accusing him. check.
    by talking nonsense. check.
    by not asking a single question. check.

    interesting strategy to calm someone down.

    if he is so convinced that anakin is gone to the dark side and dead etc, why make the effort at all? and if he isn't why not ask questions?
  20. SithStarSlayer PT & SWTV Ntwadumela: he who greets with fire

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    An interesting bit of information for this thread...

    According to "DARK LORD: The Rise Of Darth Vader" , the Immolation Scene is where "The Chosen One Died" and that"Anakin died on Coruscant".



    Overall the book only gets a seven. Believe it or not, the book doesn't have enough Vader in it...
  21. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Alpha-Red said: "I think Lucas was wrong...the scene would actually have worked better if Anakin asked for help. Even if Obi-Wan decided not to help him, that doesn't have to mean that he was evil or selfish for doing so...it could have simply been because he simply didn't trust Anakin anymore at that point. And I think it would have been even cooler to watch the OT knowing that Obi-Wan was partially responsible for how evil Vader turned out to be."

    Since a Sith only thinks of himself, his own life, and power, such a move would have been logical -- a ruse to stay alive, live to fight another day. Deception is a key Sith trait for survival -- Anakin (Vader by this time) let his pride get in the way. Had the dark apprentice appealed to his former master and friend for help, I have a hard time believing that Obi-Wan, Mr. Jedi code, would leave him to die.

    One exception -- that Obi actually 'felt' Sidious coming, or knew he was enroute. Then Obi-Wan would have to put his own survival first -- as Obi-Wan's survival is now tied to the fate of Padme and her child(ren). For all Obi-Wan knows, he and Yoda are the sole remaining Jedi, and the Jedi order must survive to protect preggo Padme, to fight the Emperor, to save the Republic.
  22. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    No no no...I mean they should've had it so that Anakin sorta turns back from the dark side for a little bit as he asks for help, but when Obi-Wan hesitates and decides to leave, he turns back to the dark side, except even more deeply than he was before.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Lucas didn't want to forshadow ROTJ for those who watch the Saga in order. He wants them to believe that Vader is lost. And that there's no reason for Obi-wan or Yoda to think otherwise, regardless of what Padme says.
  24. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    if you think this way then we could really use your help in the "There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side? " thread[face_praying]
  25. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    A lot of people have said that Obi Wan is cold-hearted to leave Anakin to burn to death.

    Watching the way this scene is framed and acted out, however, I've come to disagree. Before Anakin bursts into flames, Obi Wan has already retreated some way up the lava bank and is standing at a distance from Anakin. Now, while an argument can be made that Obi Wan was deliberately leaving him to die and presumably get burned up, it seems unreasonable to say that Obi Wan should have put his sabre to Anakin's torso and killed him mercilessly; by the time Anakin sets on fire, Obi Wan is a considerable distance and obviously feels that Anakin is rapidly on his way out. From Obi Wan's perspective, as gruesome as Anakin's immolation is (which is why he averts his gaze), Anakin has only seconds to live. Obi Wan is literally too far away to feel inclined emotionally or logically to make a difference. Feeling that Anakin is dead or about to die, he walks off. This also has an important symbolic meaning: Obi Wan has literally and figuratively turned his back on his former friend and will write him off to Luke as "twisted and evil".

    My original conjuring of this scene was that Anakin would somehow fall into the lava and Obi Wan would be powerless to retrieve him. Well, Lucas didn't go for that approach at all. I bet many other people imagined a similar result, and when they were confronted with Lucas', reacted angrily. It's very easy to dismiss Lucas' version when it doesn't meet an almost 30 year expectation - particularly when it also contains the bitter pill of showing Obi Wan, an iconic hero of pop culture, in a bad light. Really, however, I now struggle to think of how Lucas could have done it any better. In fact, it's a prime example of why the prequels were a worthy cinematic endeavour: even though we knew where the story ultimately ended, we didn't know exactly how it would go; we knew the words, but not the music. It's also a good example of using patience and trying to understand the artist's intent. In other words, people should stop behaving like Anakin ("why don't do the Jedi do things MY way?) and try and appreciate why things they don't like exist in the ways they do ("they're this way for a reason!"). Lastly, that same patience should extend to properly evaluating just HOW things were done and appreciating the finer details of that execution. Personally speaking, I had literally forgotten since viewing Revenge of the Sith at the cinema that Obi Wan was stood quite a way from Anakin before he started burning; once I rediscovered that on DVD, the whole scene felt like new and made a lot more sense to me.
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