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ST Immortality Endgame in the ST?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Jedi with a TARDIS, Dec 31, 2015.

  1. Jedi with a TARDIS

    Jedi with a TARDIS Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2013
    So, what are the odds a search for immortality will come up in Ep. 8 or 9? Since the Snoke/Plagueis Theory seems to be in play more than ever, I think this question is still pretty relevant. Here's some of the breadcrumbs we seem to have:

    Snoke seemed quite apathetic to the First Order's goals. He took Starkiller Base's destruction in stride and seemed more focused on the search for Luke than solidifying the FO's hold on the galaxy. This seems to imply he has a different main goal. What could be more important to the dark side than controlling the galaxy? Making sure you control it FOREVER, maybe?

    Luke wouldn't back down from a fight to protect his friends and family unless he HAD to. What could be so bad that Luke would HAVE to leave to keep everyone safe? There must be MORE to this fight that simple freedom or a sense of guilt. Could the fate of the FORCE be at stake?

    What could convince Ben SO completely that he would turn against his family so irrevocably? He also seems more focused on finding his uncle and Rey's power in the Force than control over star systems. WHAT about Darth Vader captivates Kylo so much that he dedicates SO MUCH to finish? Could it be the very thing that turned Anakin in the first place?

    Those are just a few things I personally have picked up on. So, what do we think now that TFA has arrived?
     
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  2. AmidalaLover

    AmidalaLover Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2014
    Maybe he plans on moving into Lukes body? If he is Plagueis could explain that he survived by moving into a different body but the body wasn't strong enough which resulted in his messed up appearance.
     
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  3. GG.exe

    GG.exe Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 9, 2015
    Copy-pasting this from another forum.....

     
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  4. Jedi with a TARDIS

    Jedi with a TARDIS Jedi Knight star 2

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    Mar 4, 2013
    So body-swapping is an idea. Would that be too sci-fi for Star Wars though?
     
  5. Huttese 101

    Huttese 101 Sam Witwer Enthusiast star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Sorry to bump this one.

    Body-swapping probably wouldn't have been so far-fetched for Legends, but for the new canon, I guess it's up in the air. Who knows? In the old continuity, Palpatine kept inhabiting clones of himself. But I can't think of any "body-swapping" per se. And of course none of that was in any of the films. But a quest for immortality for Snoke's MO seems totally plausible to me. It might actually be the best so far. I'm kinda iffy on Snoke possessing Rey's body though, or any character for that matter. That would be a little weird for upcoming movies.
     
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  6. Wildcatbarry

    Wildcatbarry Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2015
    Good post and lends credit to Han saying to Kylo that "Snoke is just using you" and will throw him away when he is finished using him.
     
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  7. OGGUNGAN

    OGGUNGAN Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2014
    The Light gets force ghosts
    The Dark side gets possession an ability some might consider unnatural.
     
  8. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2015
    I must have missed something. Why is that theory more in play than ever?

    That said, I wouldn't mind an immortality theme. That's an oldie and a goodie. Going back at least to Gilgamesh.
     
  9. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2015
    If we got Force Sensitive Trees in this new canon, y cant we have mind transfer/take over body.
     
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  10. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2015
    What is the problem with trees that are strong in the force? In ESB, we visit a place - a cave on Dagobah - that is strong in the dark side. So there's precedent for this sort of thing. Plus, it parallels spiritually-important trees in eastern religions and myth (the Buddhist Bodhi tree, for example) and other fantasy stories (the White Tree of Gondor, and the trees of Valinor, in the Lord of the Rings). This is Star Wars done right, IMO. It gives us something new/ takes the lore further, without puncturing the mythic quality of the story, as midichlorians and blood tests did in the PT.
     
  11. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Well, obviously you don't understand Plagueis logic. If Pablo Hidalgo says there are no Sith in TFA, which means no Darth Plagueis because he is a Sith, that means that Darth Plagueis is definitely in the movie and really the glue that holds the whole Saga together.

    Another example: If Plagueis was a Muun, but then Snoke turned out not to be a Muun, then it follows from Plagueis logic that Snoke is definitely Darth Plagueis.

    One more: If the actor playing Snoke says that Snoke is an all-new character, then it follows that Snoke is definitely Darth Plagueis, an old character who occupies the minds of those who expound Plagueis logic.

    Essentially, Plagueis logic is synonymous with non sequitur logic: if -B does not follow from A, then -B (Darth Plagueis) definitely follows from A.
     
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  12. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    I don't care any-more for the overall plot. Just give me characters I enjoy and treat them with respect.
     
  13. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2015


    So trees strong in the Force adds to the lore. Microscopic organisms strong in the Force detracts?
     
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  14. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014

    Well, yes. A tree being strong in the force, as used in the story, is symbolic of life, and symbolic (to me) of the delicate nature of an all encompassing Force. Midichlorians were more a literal explanation of something.
     
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  15. 11-4D

    11-4D Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 6, 2015
    How is a literal explanaton? They just explained how Jedi communicated with the Force.
     
  16. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Simple. There's nothing symbolic or mystical about the midichlorian/ microorganism thing. It's a straight science fiction element. A scientific explanation, rather than something rooted in spirituality and myth.

    Trees imbued with mystical power, in that sense, simply feels more consistent with the essence of Star Wars, which is space fantasy. Myth, legend, etc.

    Taking blood tests and counting microscopic organisms on a computer screen to measure/ quantify force sensitivity simply felt like a departure from the mystical core of the force.

    Force trees, on the other hand, feels...right. There are hundreds of myths and religious traditions that entertain the concept of specific natural entities, like certain trees, hills, mountains and lakes, as particularly spiritual places. Take a trip to New Zealand, for example, and you'll literally trip over the number of sacred natural sites, especially mountains. And in many villages and cities of Asia, you'll find sacred trees. Heck, let's throw the Christmas tree in there too.

    Force trees fit, IMO. Midis don't.
     
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  17. 11-4D

    11-4D Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Right, but the Force itself is still mystical. In such a technologically advanced galaxy that has known about the Force for thousands of years, learning the science behind communicating with it shouldn't be very farfetched, but that's it - the Force itself is still a mystical power.
     
  18. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    I don't think immortality is a new goal for the Sith, so it's not really much of a surprise Snoke would pursue it.

    However, what does immortality really matter if one is not also invulnerable? Strictly speaking, Plagueis, Palpatine, and Anakin were interested in what is more properly called longevity. This is why Plagueis could be killed, and the Sith in general, after much age, battle, or use of the darkside, tend to look half-dead.

    What would be more interesting is if Snoke had plans for an invulnerable immortality.
     
  19. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2015
    I understand that the force is still a mystical power. But by introducing the element of quantifying force sensitivity, through the vehicle of a blood test that counts microorganisms, the concept of the force (and force sensitivity) was significantly de-mystified, and made to feel mundane. I don't want to think of getting a check up at a doctor's office when I'm thinking about the force.

    It's an impressionistic thing. You can argue the details until the cows come home about the fact that the force itself is still not fully understood (which I agree with), but the impressionistic effect of the midichlorian thing was to bring the force and force sensitivity, story-wise, from the realm of the spiritual into the realm of the clinical. That was a mistake, IMO.
     
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  20. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    I agree. I don't think the midichlorians have ruined anything, and I wouldn't go over the top about how bad they are - but ultimately, bringing science into The Force slightly undermined something about the Galaxy; I really liked the inherent separation of advanced technology and a mystical Force intangible to all except those who were committed enough, and fated to be, sensitive to it.
     
  21. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    You know, the midichlorian thing might have worked better if it had been more overtly portrayed as a sign the Jedi Order's decadence and wrong direction.

    Maybe Obi-Wan is the Jedi who tests Anakin's blood, like a banal nurse, while Qui-Gon protests that empiricism is the path to a pure materialism and the darkside.
     
  22. BlueHenDave

    BlueHenDave Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Snoke can be anyone that Disney wants him to be. He easily could be Plaguies despite certain posters who show up whenever the name Plaguies is mentioned. PLaguies being a munn is not canon so don't get your argument.

    Snoke has been confirmed being around during the rise and fall of the galatic empire. What is more acceptable? A being very strong in the force that somehow kept his presence hidden from Palpatine or Palpatine's former Master who was mentioned mastering the ability to cheat death now showing up?

    To touch on the immortality topic....Palpatine told Anakin that Darth Plaguies was so strong in the force he could create life.... later saying to Anakin only one has the ability to cheat death but together we can work together to figure it out. Obviously we can say Palpatine was lying to Anakin to suck him in but what if he wasn't? Disney could easily run with this and bring in a guy that ties all the trilogies together.

    Is being a SITH a lifetime contract? Did we not hear Ahsoka say in the latest Rebels show that she is no longer a JEDI?
     
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  23. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 15, 2015
    Vitiate was the Sith Emperor 4 over 1,000 years then formed his own Eternal Empire. Being a Sith is not a lifetime thing.
     
  24. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    As self appointed chairperson of the Official "Darth Plagueis is Snoke" Club, these discussions tend not to end very well..

    The immortality theory has been raised since TFA was first announced.
     
  25. Dagobah Dragonsnake

    Dagobah Dragonsnake Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2016
    Achieving immortality by means other than a metaphysical afterlife because of good deeds and / or a good life, usually comes at a price and many time is associated with evil. It is "evil" to cheat death. The path to immortality is doing right or salvation. You become a Force Ghost (or you go to Heaven). Tinkering with immortality in any other manner leads to a price to be paid. That is archetypal. Vampires are immortal. They recruit -in some stories - by promising immortality. Palpatine did that with Anakin, sucking him in with the promise of cheating death. We have the desire for immortality - other than an afterlife - coming with a price (the self fulfilling prophesy - vision).

    I believe Lucas knew full well what he was doing and employed a well used archetype. It was not so much a story that opened up immortality for its own sake, but to show evil luring a good soul into darkness with the promise of cheating death, without revealing there is always a price to pay for this quest.

    There is a potential for application going forward as the desire for immortality being an evil motivation. However, Disney would need to show what is happening on the established "correct" path to immortality (Force Ghostery), to make the contrast. They may be unwilling to go that deep.
     
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