Lit Imperial commando:Five-oh-worst.

The big problem to me is that books like these would've been a perfect avenue to show the debate and moral quandries that the movies only hint at, from the point of view of those most affected by the issue.
Instead she decided it didn't happen, then wrote it so it didn't happen.

 

Because these authority figures are Jedi. And Jedi, being evil slave-owning-clone-exploiting villains, are therefore bad. But Mando authority figures are super, mostly because... they aren't Jedi. Which is the paradox that keeps coming up: why are the Jedi apparently bad? Because they do bad things. Why are the things they do bad? Because it's Jedi doing them, or something. Traviss keeps on hammering the point that Jedi are bad when they are supposed to be the (flawed but still basically decent) heroes... so has to create a whole new society to take the 'heroic' role the Jedi just got forced out of... by her. Logical loop makes no sense.

 

That was my least favorite moment in all the books. I thought I was going to pop a blood vessel during that scene. "Oh, the Jedi are so arrogant and they might take the kid away! Nevermind that you want to raise him normally, I'll hunt you down if you don't turn the kid over to me when he's born so I can raise him to be a Mandalorian!"

 

@Iron_lord I agree. That's one reason I'm so fascinated with the guy. How does he look himself in the eye? How does he get those conflicts into one armour and not explode? The Jedi are obviously a big piece in his coping mechanism. Somebody who did worse than him. Somebody who perpetuated a crime he only instigated. And if he tells himself often enough, and if they do that for long enough, maybe the blame he carries can be put at their feet completely...


Oh, you were in circular argumentation, jakobitis89 I thought it was something about their abilities or role in the society or something.
And truth be told, this kind of argumentation happens more than I am comfortable with and I am not talking books here. I have my opinion, don't confuse me with arguments. Skirata is a bigoted man with a skewered view of the Jedi and circular arguing. All of Traviss' Mandalorians are deeply problematic. (Which doesn't mean I don't love them to squishy bits.)

I don't have to believe Skirata that the Jedi are bad when his reasoning is so obviously wrong. And this is where you lose me again for bringing in Traviss.

Also, I don't see the Mandalorians as heroes or a group replacing the Jedi in that role. (Not that I see the Jedi as heroes, but then I find it very hard to find a hero who's actually good in the whole CW mess.)

Miriedis Hehe. As much as I love Kal Skirata, I am gad we won't ever meet. We'd clash so hard, I'd end up dead.

 

Yeah, could have phrased that better.

Coming into these books cold, the reader's loyalty / support as it were, is going to be likely inclined towards the Jedi, but then you have this new bunch who don't see the Jedi as benevolent figures, so a reader might well have a sense of conflicted loyalties over who to side with.

Often in soldier viewpoint tales there'll be the good officer who looks out for his men's welfare and the bastard officer who doesn't give a toss. What happens in these books is the good officer is still despised for being in charge and an officer, so the reader may well end up being ambivalent.

 

Toward the beginning, Etain is the "good officer" (until she finally decides to resign) and Zey the "less-good officer". Over time though, we get to see Zey's better nature.

 

Was Zey much in TZ - I've lost whatever memory I had of that book - or did he turn up later?

 

He appears as early as Hard Contact, apparently:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Arligan_Zey

 

Since we are already jumping around on what we are discussing so would I like to ask: Who designed the clones stupidly brutal training? Most people seems to blame the kaminoan but they don't seems to be that kind of people that have any real knowledge in that field so the impression I got was that it was Jango and the Cuy'val Dar but nobody seems to really mention them.

And the same question but for OoU.

 

Yeah, but as far as I recall, not in the main story, there's these flashback moments at the start of chapter headings.

 

You know would not Etain handing over her kid to the order to be raised the jedi way be her raising him normally? At least for her and all other jedi

 

I thought he was the guy Etain argued with, when she was instructed to get off-planet, leaving the clones behind?

 

Has been over a decade since I read it sooo....

 

We saw a certain amount of "Republic admiral puts clones through brutal training" in The Cestus Deception.

 

He was. He was also the guy giving the clone commandos their mission briefing.

I know but do we know who designed it? In univers and out of it?

 

I'm pretty sure it was Jango Fett himself who pushed for the brutal training, and the Republic officers (who weren't Jedi, it seemed, and didn't view the clones as regular people) continued the tradition (like in The Cestus Deception).

Also, I don't think all "non-Jedi upbringings" are equally 'normal'. Mandalorians make their kids go into battle at aged 8, and I don't think the rest of the galaxy considers it 'normal'. I thought Etain was thinking of her and Darman leaving the Army and raising their son to be...I don't know, whatever he wanted to be. Go to school on some quiet planet, find a nice career path, live like an average citizen.

 

But what is average in GFFA?

 

We do spend a lot of time with the extraordinary citizens, but there are plenty of scientists and doctors running around, plenty of government workers, people who work with ships, people working in stores, teachers, there's a whole range of possibilities. Both Etain and Darman kind of had their career paths set out for them from the onset, so maybe Etain wanted her kid to explore his options, not have to pick up a weapon if he didn't want to. If Kal got his way (we'll never exactly know) and took Kad out onto the battlefield at age 8, I don't consider that 'exploring his options'. He'd be forcefully nudged into one direction for the rest of his life, and even if he chose another career path, it'd still be an incredibly huge part of his character. (Don't even get me started on the psychological problems with bringing little kids into a warzone, holy crap.)

 

Man, I'm showing my age, my frame of reference (although well before my time):

 

Beside ships and store workers so are the people you mentioned academics, and how average are academics in GFFA?

true

That is one of the problems I have with Traviss' mandos

 

@JediBen
I see where you are coming from. Personally, I shun the Prequels because I can't watch them withuot cringing. I was disappointed by 99% of them and had a beef bigger than a bantha with the depiction of the OJO.
Not saying I didn't believe the Jedi were supposed to be benevolent and good. I just didn't get that from the movies. I found it difficult to emphasise with any of them or agree with their views and methods.
Personally, I don't think it is bad per se if a reader is ambivalent about which side to root for. There's a story behind each side. And I wouldn’t count Skirata et al among the unbiased, trustworthy narrators of the GFFA. (I would not count anybody among those, but that’s just me.)
Coming to the conclusion that he has his head up his shebs is perfectly fine. Agreeing with him is as fine too, though you might face some difficulties justifying his less ethic actions. Same for the Jedi, IMO.


I actually liked Zey. He seemed to do his best to be actually part of a working military. Over time I got the feeling he resigned more and more faced with the impossible struggle that was not only the war but the GAR itself.


I'd put some blame on Jango for sure. He was overseeing the cloning project from the start, IRRC? And he'd know best how to turn himself into war machines. I would not put some scientific help beyond the Kaminoans. Like Jango said what he wanted done and the Kaminoans knew how to achieve it.

Does anybody have some quotes of Jango about the clones?

 

"Do you like your army?"
"I look forward to seeing them in action."
"They'll do their job well. I'll guarantee that."
―Jango Fett and Obi-Wan Kenobi

Clone: "Can you really do it? Can you shoot yourself?"
Jango: "Could you do it?"
Clone: "…no."
Jango: "That's because you're not me."
―A clone and Jango Fett, as the latter kills the former

 

Doesn't look as if he was emotionally attached to them. So I can't see a problem blaming the training mostly on him. He knows how he works. Wrap that in science and you might well have Kamino...

 

The "terminate every clone who fails by a sufficient degree" policy seems to be more a Kaminoan thing though.

 

They're making a frightingly efficient team. x_X