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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Imperial Racial & Gender Barriers in the New Rebels Era Continuity

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Robimus, Sep 2, 2014.

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  1. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    o_O You see I am British and I can't remember ever seeing British uniforms look like that.

    You have terms such a Stormtroopers and Darth Vader as a quasi SS guy in black (complete with a Nazi helmut) with the the Imperial March a sort of Nazish/Imperial german Theme, even the decor is very Naziish. Then you have the generation of which Lucas was from and the guilt over Vietnam and wanting to go back to what was seen as the more black and white WW2 era.
     
  2. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Vader's helmet is actually not based on anything German at all, but rather on Samurai helmets. You can straight up see his exact helmet (the back part) in Kurosawa films. Imperial officer uniforms -- we learned recently -- were based on German cavalry from the First World War.
     
  3. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    But my argument from the start has been that the films don't establish the Empire as Space Nazis except aesthetically, and the decision of the old EU to take it further than that was a mistake that I don't mind seeing done away with in the new continuity.
     
  4. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2013

    Wait, so you're saying the Empire has no precedent in the films for being anti-alien?

    Nah. I disagree. Regardless, it's not a trope that makes them like Space Nazis, it's a trope that makes them like any colonial power... specifically the British, considering the vast breadth of the Empire's occupation and varying treatments of different alien populations based on what they deemed appropriate; the Nazis kind of had a single M/O, whereas the Empire treated alien species as resources (some enslaved, some indoctrinated, some simply subjugated). Using your logic from before, Nazis don't own oppression, so automatically associating the oppression of aliens with the Nazi M/O transgresses against the very principle you mentioned, covering over the many other imperial powers throughout history in favor of the most obvious. What I mean is, I think you are drawing that connection and unfairly overlooking its relevance to other world powers, I don't think that's what's being concretely presented by the general idea of alien oppression.
     
  5. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

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    Jan 2, 2000
    Why specifically the British as they were far more inclusive back than say the USA or the Russian Empire.
    Also please can you show where the uniforms are similar as I still cannot find where
     
  6. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2013

    That's partially what I mean. If you look at something like the Noghri, they obviously took advantage of aliens when the opportunity arose. In other cases, they engaged them in battle, and in other cases, they enslaved them. It's still oppression, domination, and exploitation. The US aren't really a colonial power in that literal sense; they exert their influence and enter into wars, but I wouldn't say it's comparable to a world-spanning empire. That's not to say they're inherently any more moral... they just happened to bring an end to the colonial period and change the prevalent form of imperialism to something less direct. The primary thing I see from the US showing up in the empire is the police state concept.

    I can't really find any reference images, but I'm not talking redcoats; I mean the later officer uniforms from India and Australia (not the rank-and-file or fiddly formal stuff). I think you're being thrown by color, but I'm talking about the stiff upward collars and double-breasted fronts. You mentioned the French ones... the British ones I'm referring to are pretty much exactly the same, along with the German WWI ones mentioned before. I spent a few years doing clothing alterations so I probably notice a different set of things, but anyway, I associate it with the British because that was the world's largest occupying empire at the time of their use. They're all roughly the same. I'm not picking on anyone.

    Regardless, the Imperial officer uniforms really aren't that similar to Nazi uniforms when you actually put them next to each other; Nazi uniforms had lower-buttoning jackets with ultra-wide lapels, and they were usually belted lower, plus those functional wide-cut thighs. The color is comparable on some, but that's it.
     
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  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    This article:

    http://www.starwars.com/news/from-world-war-to-star-wars-imperial-officers

    mentions that Prussian uniforms were part of the inspiration for Imperial ones.
     
  8. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2013
    Yeah, but they're fairly generic; the impression I get is that they flipped through all sort of early 20th century uniforms and settled on the one that combined imperialism and simplicity. The idea that it's a German one isn't necessarily intentional; people forget what a huge line was crossed in the time between WWI Germans and Nazis.

    But so we're clear:

     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Indeed. I think another article might have brought up "British cavalry boots" as the basis for something Imperial, but I can't find it in the From World War to Star Wars series.

    EDIT: apparently not - all I get is the Germany cavalry reference, from here.
     
  10. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    Of course they were. The War of 1812 was about trying to conquer Canada, you then had War with Mexico for California etc and of course with the various Indian Nations as well as the filibuster attempts in South America. America was also involved in China and Japan with the other powers. Then there was the Phillipine Rebellion in the early 1900's and Mexico again. Just because it was not called Colonialsm does not mean it wasn't
     
  11. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    This thread got really uninteresting to me really fast. :p
     
  12. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2013

    No, I said that "the US aren't really a colonial power in that literal sense." If it was not called colonialism, then in a literal sense, it was not colonialism. I just said that it's not inherently any more moral; I simply made a distinction due to era and definition. As far as it relates to the Empire, they're colonial in a literal sense. You really shouldn't take it personally.
     
  13. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    This is a really fruitless discussion guys. Neither the British nor the Americans were angelic. British colonial policy in the subcontinent was not pretty. Moreover, the U.S. did practice colonialism and was particularly brutal in the Philippines. Moreover, there's the whole "Manifest Destiny" thing.


    But the bottom line is, both of you seem pretty bothered by the notion that the Empire could be an allegory for either country, or that either country did awful things. The Empire is inspired by the conduct of both countries -- we know that from BTS stuff -- and both countries have their share of shameful past history. Arguing who is worse is pointless -- nobody's winning points here.


    And since this is woefully off-topic, I am decreeing an end to this tangent.
     
  14. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 19, 2013
    I think we should just enjoy the movies how they are and not look for allegory.
     
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  15. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    That's up to the individual but insisting one country is more valid than another is poor form, regardless. I don't hold they are Space Nazis as some do I hold that it's UK vs America in space and either way I find the implications disturbing.
     
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  16. Kablob

    Kablob Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 24, 2014
    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2013

    Absolutely wrong. I simply delineated the colonial era from the post-colonial era. I made it explicit in my very first post on the subject that the US is no better. In fact, I'd say that Manifest Destiny wasn't colonialism, it was outright conquest.

    I'm sick of the mind-numbingly idiotic moral accusations in this thread anyway. Out.
     
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  18. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    Is making the evil Empire also racist, sexist and speciest just a way to make your antagonist more hissable? Is that really a bad thing in a sci-fi fantasy world? You're supposed to hate those guys! It is very over the top, I will admit, but it does fit the tone of the universe.
     
  19. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 19, 2013
    I root for the Empire in general, so.

    I personally believe that there is a thing as trying to hard to make your villains unlikeable. For example, I think destroying Alderaan was over the top. They did nothing. THEY DESTROY A PLANET, AND KILL BILLIONS. Then they do nothing evil again. I'd like some consistency in villainization, please.
     
  20. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 25, 2013
    One question. Is there anything anywhere in the EU or the original movies that supports the Empire being racist, as in, "white guys only"? The impression I always got from the EU was that the Empire had prejudice against nonhumans, prejudice against women, but that prejudice between humans of different colors was a nonissue. (Although there were humans on individual planets, like the Toprawans, that were targeted specifically, the common denominator wasn't skin color).

    Anyways. Beyond that, I always liked the whole species prejudice side of the galaxy (with the Empire preaching human supremacism and alien species flocking to the Rebellion in reaction to that) that got developed in the EU - because it seemed to me to be fairly realistic. Politics in this day and age has always had a strong element of tribalism. In the most extreme form, you get things like the civil wars in Syria and Iraq; in more moderate form, you get the Democrats and Republicans in the modern U.S, where people aren't in war or revolution, but you still have a stereotype of one party being more friendly to white people and another more friendly towards nonwhites. (Never mind whether the stereotypes are fair or not: the point is that they exist, they're widespread, and plenty of people do choose their political sides based at least partly on that. I'm not talking about a Ku Klux Klan level, fanatic belief that "I support this party because I believe in the supremacy of my race and this party will help me achieve it!"; a perception that the other party "oh, they only care about these other people, they never do anything for us, so I'm going to stick with this party instead, at least it listens to us" is enough). It's rarely the ONLY element in politics, but it's often an important element nonetheless.

    After all, politics is all about sending people the message that "I'm one of you." There are few cheaper and easier ways to do that than to phrase that as "I'm part of your Tribe," and politicians have been doing it for ages. Would make perfect sense for the Empire to play on that. Only at that level, tribalism becomes about species rather than ethnic/sectarian identities.
     
  21. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    In the entire franchise, AFAIK, there's exactly one reference to human racism, and it's in the Lando adventures--it's to my constant annoyance that I can never find the exact passage, but basically Lando comes across a racist and he's baffled that such a thing would still happen.
     
  22. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    100% of visible members of the Empire are men. What would have had had us presume in the 1970's & 80's? That there were a ton of females under the helmets despite the fact that they show none?

    Didn't really think it was a big deal - the idea for discussion is not only based upon the book but some of the promotional work for Rebels as well that I've noticed. The book just happens to be front and center - but note it isn't mentioned in the thread title. The thread title doesn't even lean one way or the other. It could be an entire topic on how Rebels era continuity doesn't have any diversity thus far if your going by the title alone.

    "Should've been" ?

    You don't own a monopoly on topics of conversation here. You should be encouraging people to create more topics and have more conversation, not less.
     
  23. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Alright guys, let's play nice. This thread is still open and has been kept open because it had enough potential for discussion to warrant an in-depth look. That's all that need be said on the matter.
     
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