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Lit Imperials executed by the New Republic

Discussion in 'Literature' started by JediFett10, Feb 27, 2014.

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  1. Reveen

    Reveen Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2012
    The sticker is what did the New Republic do about it. Okay, a bunch of *******s connected to your movement murdered some civilians, that sucks but it happens, but are going to hold them accountable for it or just say "acceptable losses lol"?

    Yep!

     
  2. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    Agreed on that point. But I just wanted to point out that too many sources usually present the Empire and the Rebsl/Republic in some sort of bizarre duality. As if millions of Rebels were saints and millions of Imperials were cackling lunatics. This is what I call "Hollywood politics 101."
     
  3. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
    True.

    Or well...I mean, I get what you say...but there are still plenty of people out there who go and argue that the Empire are the good guys anyway. Between that and the reactions of viewers to some anime I watch...I have to wonder if it is even possible to make a situation so black and white that people can't find ambiguity in it.
    .....Though maybe people prefer reversing the moral interpretation of black and white stories than they do ones with nuance?
     
  4. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I. They count, I just don't consider them state policy.

    II. To the extent that they exist, I criticize them.

    III. Nobody follows my view anyway since people seem to like an all or nothing approach, so might as well tar and feather all of them.

    IV. The Coruscant invasion was presided over by Mothma and Ackbar, at any rate. This isn't like Tarkin exceeding his authority with Vader unable to stop him -- it's as if Tarkin stood by while some rogue gunners decided to shoot Alderaan for target practice. Command responsibility and al.


    Misa ab iPhono meo est.
     
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  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Tying together the "criminals released from Kessel" with the "violent Rebels" would simplify things a bit.

    I could see those that actually obeyed the instructions (so, not Zekka Thyne) setting up small resistance cells, which are much more violent and atrocity-prone than is usual for Rebels.
     
  6. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I was honestly thinking it's more likely groups like the Alien Combine and affiliated organizations. Remember that before it was a NR, it was a Rebel Alliance. Even on Coruscant, there were cells that were serving the Rebellion... just sleepers.

    The violence is too personal to be Black Sun. What do they care about the Palace? Looting it is a symbolic act. It's gotta be people who actually hated the Empire for more reasons than just being jailed.


    Misa ab iPhono meo est.

    Edit: not that the Combine was established as a Rebel cell -- as we know, it was Gavin who convinced them to help.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    We know from Wedge's Gamble that the Combine was not above murdering civilians to send messages. Gavin survived - how many were there before him, that didn't?
     
  8. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    If you want to look at that sentence, more significant is the word "already." On the day the Rebels took Coruscant, the Palace had been "shelled hard and partially looted already." It sounds like the locals got at it before the New Republic forces did. But the important point is that we're talking about local irregulars, resistance cells and such, showing up and raiding the Palace in the course of the chaotic liberation (and that's being generous -- it's possible Hambly simply meant "partisans" in the sense of "Rebel-sympathizing civilians"), not regular New Republic troops going on some kind of spree. It's not a Soviet march on Berlin thing. It's the rabid locals. And there's nothing saying that looting and lynching went unpunished. It's a nice bit of ambiguity reflecting the fact that no side in a war is ever completely clean, that there were overzealous Rebel supporters, but there's nothing to establish that it's some big sin of the New Republic itself, the way you like to always present it.
     
  9. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I took "already" to be part of Leia's recollection -- she recalls walking through the Palace with it having been damaged and the like. But I've never once suggested it was the Rebel army that did it: but locally established cells and guerilla forces. I thought that was clear from my quoted post, at the very least.

    As far as your claim that there's nothing that establishes that it's a sin of the New Republic itself -- what? What happened to command responsibility? It's a fairly fundamental doctrine of the law of war we're talking about here: the forces were affiliated with the Rebellion (hence the use of the proper adjective -- I reject the suggestion that she could've meant sympathizers since partisans has a clear meaning in context) and they were attacking the Palace during the overall Alliance operation. It's the part of a commanding officer to ensure that there are no atrocities taking place against civilians, civilian property, and particularly cultural heritage sites. These were war crimes, and Ackbar is responsible.
     
  10. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Can Ackbar really command what every Rebel cell inside enemy territory does in the middle of an invasion? We have trouble controlling everything that happens during a the invasion of a city or a country in the real world, but the New Republic is supposed to prevent any atrocities from happening on a planet of a trillion-plus people during a prolonged battle? Remember, too, that the New Republic had to land its ground forces on the pole before fighting their way to the Palace -- local cells that, regardless of technical affiliation, the New Republic could have had very little real direct control of during the battle, would have had plenty of time to run riot before the New Republic even got on the scene.

    In short, I have a very hard time reading this a situation in which the New Republic stood around and let yahoos go on murder sprees, or condoned anything that happened, in any way that actually reflects on the moral culpability of the New Republic. I mean, is the New Republic to be tarred with speciesism because Castin Donn's Rebel cell was speciesist? When the Castin Donn local yahoos of Coruscant ran riot during the invasion, is it any more the New Republic's fault? It's an incident that nicely reflects the high emotions and uglier side of the Galactic Civil War, but it's not of any particular use as an indictment of the New Republic as a whole. You're much better off sticking with stuff like releasing Black Sun on Coruscant, which was an actual decision by actual New Republic leadership.
     
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