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PT Implication of Mace's decision in Palpatine's office

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by HevyDevy, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. J7Luke

    J7Luke Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 30, 2017
    There is a lot of stuff already in this thread, and while I did my best to scan over it all, I apologize if this has already been said:

    I do not think Mace Windu ever really planned on arresting Palpatine. I think it is still canonical that Mace leaned a little closer to the dark side than most, so he probably knew more than most the type of threat Palpatine presented. Furthermore, Mace was always very harsh and severe. In his mind, anyone who used the dark side probably deserved to die if they used it to harm others (that is just an assumption on my part based on his character).

    Anyways, my main point is that Mace probably went to go "arrest" Palpatine as a formality. Mace probably knew that Palpatine would not truly surrender, but he had to offer him the chance so that killing him would be justified. Kind of like how in a hostage situation they always offer the person a chance to surrender. They almost never do, but just in case, they have to offer.

    With that said, I personally feel like killing Palpatine was a justified move from Mace's perspective. Unlike most war criminals, Palpatine posed such a threat and was so evil that imprisoning him (no matter where) would have been pointless. Mace understood just how far Palpatine's reach was. Even with video and audio proof and a witness (of which the Jedi had only one), there is no way that Palpatine would have been convicted of his crimes. And even if he was, there is no way he would stay in prison for any amount of time. Palpatine was just too powerful. It can almost be argued that it was worth betraying the Jedi to prevent such an evil from remaining in the galaxy. As a side note, it cannot be argued that Mace was killing an unarmed person. Palpatine was still capable of multiple force attacks, and Mace (and Anakin) knew that. Another side note, I personally feel like Palpatine forfeited the right to a peaceful surrender by attacking initially. Any "surrenders" after that could honestly be assumed to be deception.

    Lastly, I do not believe that Mace's attempt at killing Palpatine touched Anakin in any way on a moral level. Anakin simply did not want to see his only tool for saving Padmé destroyed. This is perhaps most clearly seen by Anakin's slaughtering of the young ones at the Jedi temple almost immediately after "saving" Palpatine. Also, Anakin had to walk past the three mutilated Jedi on his way in to Palpatine's office. I am pretty sure he could tell Palpatine did not kill them in self-defense.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  2. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 26, 2013
    Mace yanked his arm free. "He's too dangerous to be left alive. If you could have taken Dooku alive, would you have?"
    Skywalker's face swept itself clean of emotion. "That was different--"
    Mace turned toward the cringing, beaten Sith Lord. "You can explain the difference after he's dead."

    That is SUCH a pure Samuel L. Jackson line [face_rofl]
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    But what about what Lucas said when he stated that Mace was doing the right thing and then changes his mind? Is his lying? Or was Mace intent on arresting Palpatine and then change his mind? Remember, he was going there to see if he was going to turn over power back to the Senate or arrest him if he didn't. Anakin just added a whole new wrinkle to the mix that he didn't consider.
     
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  4. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Yeah killing Palpy and saving the galaxy was the right thing to do. To argue otherwise is insanity.
     
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  5. J7Luke

    J7Luke Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 30, 2017
    To be honest, I forgot George Lucas said that. Personally, I do not view George Lucas's statements about any of the movies as canon. (I believe he also called Jar Jar "the key to all this.") I just watch the movies and interpret them as best I can. If a canonical book states something that sheds new light on the movies, I will (begrudgingly) except it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    As Yoda told Ezra, how a Jedi chooses to win a fight is more important than just winning the fight. Killing a "helpless" Sith Lord is not right. That's why Anakin said it was wrong to have killed Dooku as he did and why Luke was right for not killing his father.

    Jar Jar is the key to everything. His friendship with Padme is what leads her to discover that the Gungans believe that the Naboo think of themselves as superior to the Gungans. Which in turn allows her to prove otherwise to Boss Nass and results in the alliance that helps to liberate Naboo and establish a new relationship going forward. And it is Jar Jar who is manipulated into giving Palpatine the authority to use the Clone Army against the Separatist threat.
     
  7. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    I feel like we've had this argument before. This is where I say "he wasn't helpless he can shoot lightning out of his hands and control peoples minds"
    Anybody else stop paying attention after the first sentence? [face_rofl]
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Right, but it is about optics. It looks bad that the Council and Obi-wan have rules stating that it is wrong for a Jedi to kill an unarmed prisoner, who may be helpless and are unable to defend themselves, and then turn around and try to kill someone who is in that very position. Instead of doing as I would do, it is do as I say and that rubs people the wrong way all the time. As to Palpatine, contain him by cutting off his hands and locking him up with the Jedi, who are strong willed.
     
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  9. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    I think some forget that Anakin also was tempted to kill Palpatine in is office once Palpatine revealed his true motives and abilities. But Palpatine played with Anakin's ethics, morality and inner conflict along with his fears and lusts for greater power. Padme was the deciding factor that saved Palpatine, Anakin's greed and attachments.

    The TCW/Dark Disciple in particular, the recent Mace WIndu comic touches on some of these themes too about the Jedi Order and "Jedi way" - as did TLJ with Luke's loss of faith and "one truth" revelation . The Jedi are messed up for quite a few reasons, from their own hubris, to them being partly soldiers(or police prior to the war) and part time warriors, to being too close to the political system & to the Sith Shrine.


    Anakin arguing not the Jedi way is a complex situation, since he too just prior executed a Sith Lord and has done things against the code and one time almost left the Jedi Order(he Anakin and Obi Wan comic). So you're dealing with lots of complexity and hypocrisy on various fronts.

    Mace and other Council members assassinating a Sith Lord - he was fine with since he was behind the attempt on Dooku's life by Vos and Ventress.

    Also you cannot forget that Sidious/Palpatine had connections in the senate and all branches of the government that he was leading for years plus the Separatists, he was embedded. Its not likely the Jedi would risk another war, they wanted everything over quick, so did Sidious once Dooku was eliminated and he sold out Grievous. It was all one big gamble to even pushing Anakin to aid him after Anakin said he was telling the Jedi who he was.
     
  10. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    But he wasn't helpless and he was fully able to defend himself and kill others.
     
  11. Ruffmeian

    Ruffmeian Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 19, 2015
    But from Anakin's perspective, he was wounded and without his weapon. That's the whole problem here, is how Anakin observed and read the situation. Anakin wouldn't have cut Mace's arm off if there wasn't a very clear hypocritical leniency of the Jedi way. It's witnessing a Jedi Master about to kill an unarmed opponent, which is strictly forbidden in the Jedi code.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  12. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    No. The whole problem here is that he promised Anakin he could save Padme. Anakin's final words in the scene are "I need him!" and "What have I done?" He knows his actions are selfish and wrong. Geez man come on. Did you notice the scene where Anakin murders the weaponless CIS leaders? He isn't talking about standing trial then, is he?
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  13. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 17, 2015
    Well, it’s obviously intended to contrast with Anakin Skywalker’s decision to execute Count Dooku at the beginning of the film, which itself is obviously intended to contrast with Luke Skywalker’s decision to spare Darth Vader several years later.

    Yes, Anakin betrayed Mace Windu for selfish reasons. It’s also true that, as far as anybody knew, Palpatine was helpless. His energy seemed depleted and he was begging for his life. Obviously, we know that he was playing them, but they don’t know that.

    Anakin and Windu made the wrong decision. Luke made the right one. As Tolkien so eloquently put it: “It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need.”
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Yes, he is. He wants him to stand trial for his crimes, but he also wants him to live due to his desire to save Padme. Both are intertwined with each other. If Mace had continued to proceed with arresting Palpatine, then Anakin wouldn't have been forced to take action. But because Mace became angry enough to disregard the Jedi Code, it forced Anakin to take action to stop Palpatine from being killed. There's a reason Lucas included the line about Dooku being a prisoner and being executed by Anakin was wrong. It's done for a reason. It ties into Anakin's growing distrust of the Jedi Council and plays a part in his believing the lie that the Jedi are no different from the Sith.

    Right. That's why Palpatine shifts tactics and pretends to be weak, which Anakin totally believes in that moment. Mace doesn't believe it, which is why he defends his actions as being for the good of everyone and that Palpatine is still too powerful. Once Anakin has taken action, Palpatine smiles and lets loose with his full, unlimited power. You can even see that Anakin is surprised that he wasn't as helpless as he pretended.
     
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  15. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    I think Mace Windu was justified. "He has control of the Senate and the Courts!"

    And Windu offered Palpatine the arrest option twice. Twice!

    Obviously he wasn't focused or maybe even aware of Anakin's conflict regarding Padme. But admittedly it looked bad if you just walked in and saw a Jedi Master of the Council about to kill the Chancellor. But in the context of the entire fight, before he bested Palpatine, and in the context of the manipulation that the Jedi know him now (thanks to Anakin) to have done, it was right.

    I have no love for the Republic, but look what happened to the Jedi after Anakin betrayed them and Windu went out the window. Palpatine killed them all.

    As for a Jedi junta running the Republic, now that is the trilogy I want to see!
     
  16. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 17, 2015
    I always thought Windu bought into the helpless act as well. A dead man can’t exert much influence over the Senate and the courts. Windu just didn’t care.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
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  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    But then Palpatine practically surrendered by no longer resisting arrest. If someone stops resisting arrest, the objective isn't to kill them, but to arrest them. That's why Lucas says, "You got me, you got me." He has surrendered by saying that he is too old and too weak, then stops attacking him. Anything else is murder without justification.

    But it still wasn't right. If I shoot at a cop, run out of ammo and then decide to surrender, but they open fire, that's wrong.
     
  18. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    I think you're over thinking stuff. If you're an active shooter and a cop killer to boot, your chances for survival on the field or in a criminal justice system are pretty slim.

    Anyway, what Sidious did was an act of perfidy not surrender. Of course Mace saw through the deception, Anakin didnt.

    Sidious was literately cornered and defeated up to that point since his lightning was rendered useless at that range and predicament.Otherwise, Sidious was in no way too old and weak. You're also forgetting the "Unlimited power" line once Anakin creates an opening by cutting off Mace's lower arm thus incapacitating him and leaving him open to a horrendous attacks. He used those lines to mess with Anakin's head and his sense of morality and justice. In the end Anakin did not save him cause it was right and just but because "I need him". Sidious is a Sith Lord(this case the Master), an expert martial artist and swordsman, war criminal, a devil, a Force sensitive ect.

    He just slayed what was it 3 Jedi Masters moments prior and fired Ligthning from out've fingertips and attempted to murder Mace. Do you think any Jedi in their right mind or otherwise is gonna let him walk away from that(not to mention all the evil he caused and deaths he's responsible for).
     
  19. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Nah bruh. He wants to keep Palpatine alive for one reason; saving Padme. Again, did you notice he doesn't care about standing trial when it comes to killing the CIS leaders?
    How did you get that from the scene? Mace Windu literally said "he's too dangerous to be left alive."
    The murder is completely justified. It's punishment for crimes against humanity (and other species) including a false war that has killed millions. (billions?) Surrendering doesn't mean everyone has to forgive and forget. Okay you surrendered, thank you; now die for what you've done.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I know all that. What I'm saying is that regardless of Palpatine's deception, he had effectively surrendered in front of Anakin. Mace's decision sent a mixed message. And yes, a normal Jedi would know not to break the Code, which is why Obi-wan doesn't kill Anakin on Mustafar. He leaves him to die, but he does not break the Code.

    He's a Sith Lord when he's killing the Separatist Council and was ordered to kill them. He has no qualms about doing so. As a Jedi, he would and would question the order. Just as he questions killing Dooku.

    Then by that logic, Luke should have killed Vader and Kylo instead of sparring them and Anakin shouldn't have questioned, nor hesitated to kill Dooku. The point is that the Jedi have established a code of conduct regarding prisoners and part of that is to not kill anyone who is unarmed and unable to defend themselves from a killing blow. A Jedi should only kill in defense of themselves and others and only when that is an imminent attack, not something that will happen five months from now. Mace does the wrong thing for what he thinks is the right reasons. This is showing us how far down the Jedi have fallen because of the Sith's machinations.
     
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  21. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    But Palpatine resisted arrest not once, but twice. So I guess I see your point. That Mace should have said to Anakin, let's bring him in together?

    Frankly I am all for a Jedi coup led Republic or Palpatine's Empire. Just not a fan of corrupt Old Republic or Mothma's idea of a new one.
     
  22. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Palpatine's legit chance to surrender was forfeited when he thought he was above the law "I am the senate" and he proceeded to attack and murder Jedi Knights. That was Mace and company's trying to take him alive, they did attempt it as ideally that was their way.

    But like I said its not surrender in that scene with Anakin, its perfidy. And the the Jedi are at war with the Sith who started it.

    Palpatine is a Sith Lord, he's not a regular human being nor is he a Jedi or former Jedi. He's also a traitor leading the most powerful military fighting force in the galaxy as commander in chief, he's extremely dangerous and a mass murderer. Sith Lords are trained to use the Dark Side, which means they're experts and not just merely tapping into it or playing around with it, or tainted. They're fully immersed and masters, living weapons of mass destruction.

    Moreover Mace Windu is a leading Jedi Council member, that means he's outranks Anakin and in the absence of a legitimate government the Jedi Council has the military and all the executive authority they need to safe guard what remains of the Republic until such a time they can reform a government. Who really cares what Anakin thought it, he was not really even a legit Master, he was forced into that rank by the Chancellor prior and used as a spy for both the Jedi and Sith. Anakin had mixed loyalties and the Jedi suspected him as being dangerous & disloyal even during that film. The Jedi are the sworn guardians of the Republic, Mace there was just doing his duty as both a Jedi and military commander.

    Besides Palpatine and the Sith for many years has been subverting the Senate and government, replacing or corrupting peoples that could do their bidding. It could've taken a many years to fix the Republic or may not of happened at all following the war Palpatine started. By that time who knows what could happen, he was too dangerous to be kept alive.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    That is what he should have said. But he was goaded into changing his mind.

    The Republic was far better than the Empire and the First Order, regardless of corruption. And the Jedi would never rule, which is why the Sith exist.

    There is no forfeiture ever when it comes to surrendering, if you choose to resist to arrest because then you can choose to surrender. That's how the law works. It winds up falling to officers to make the correct or incorrect choice afterwards.

    It doesn't matter who started what, the point is that within the law of the Republic and within the Jedi Code, it is wrong to kill someone like that. Regardless of any deception. Until Palpatine made a move to attack again, he is by all rights, unarmed and unable to defend himself. Remember, he uses this same ploy on Luke, saying outright that doing so will corrupt Luke. It doesn't matter if he is or isn't lying, what matters is what he does or doesn't do.

    And he was wrong. First, there is a legitimate government in place. The Senate. Palpatine himself is still the legitimate Chancellor as he was voted into power. What Mace was discussing was taking control, only temporarily, and then allowing the Senate to vote a new Chancellor who was vetted. And as to Anakin, it doesn't matter if he is a Master or not. He is there and he is witnessing a Jedi Master break the very rules that he was taught for years to adhere to. It falls into the narrative of the Jedi being corrupt and unethical, willing to stage a coup for political power.

    He can be held in the Citadel, which is kept away from his allies and surrounded by the Jedi.
     
  24. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 17, 2015
    The Jedi are supposed to act as guardians of peace and justice, not as self-appointed judge, jury and executioner. As Yoda said, “A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

    Palpatine has done many horrible things…but as far as Anakin and Windu are aware, he’s incapacitated. Windu took it upon himself to execute Palpatine. He’s supposed to be a Jedi Master, not Dirty Harry.
     
  25. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Well then chalk it to the Sith Shrine polluting the Jedi and their ways... but it does not change the fact that it perfidy, ignoring it wont change it any.

    Look, Palpatine was given a chance early on, and that was even before Mace was entirely certain he was a Sith Lord, he just had Anakin's word on it. But yeah that was his chance. If you think you can just murder kill people and law officers and throw your arms up to surrender to save your own life all cause you ran out've ammo you have another thing coming. [face_cowboy]

    Palpatine is not subject to the Bill of Rights of the USA, you're acting like he's a US citizen or something. Its a fantasy version of a Republic and Democracy , we also know that this Republic is protected by the Jedi Knights who formed monastic military order around it.

    Anakin was talking crap cause he needed Palpatine alive for his own purposes and Anakin was never one for following the rules , laws or codes, he's not a credible figure and just prior he went against the code and murdered/executed Dooku.

    And no there was no legit government in place since Palpatine is a traitor and Sith Lord and lied and manipulated everything to seat himself as Supreme Chancellor. The Republic government was torn apart by the separatists crises, and in a civil war. Palpatine elevated himself to near dictator status by manipulating the senate and dosing himself with executive powers & both sides are controlled by the Sith. Palpatine was also filling the government with his cronies for years since taking office.


    The Citadel was in Separatists/Sith's hands in TCW, it was compromised. And if the Jedi(and some soldiers) broke in and out, why couldnt a Sith or their allies?!

    Palpatine was also commander of the Republic military, there was no telling out how far his influence spread. And of course we know(also keep in mind Palpatine had a direct relationship above the Jedi with the Kaminoans ), the Jedi not so much. The biochip and the clones was were always Palpatine's ace. What makes you think even if he was arrested that somehow the entire army of the Republic would not turn against the Jedi anyway and/or Separatists attack or some new military and civil threat arise?!

    The Jedi are not saints or pacifists or whatever, thats basically the message of TCW and TLJ . They're part of the greater problem to an extent, not the solution, its an infinite struggle to entertain us. BUT they are the good guys of the series. They're warriors and combatants fighting on the side of the Light. It is what it is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018