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PT Implication of Mace's decision in Palpatine's office

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by HevyDevy, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Oct 17, 2015
    @Vorax Due process is an essential component of any liberal democracy. A semi-autonomous, unelected body, such as the Jedi, can’t just go around arresting public officials…and the movies make clear that the Chancellor doesn’t have the same kind of authority over the Jedi that, for example, the President has over the United States Armed Forces.

    Windu essentially attempted a coup d’état…and Jedi should not be attempting coups.
    DarthTalonx likes this.
  2. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost star 10

    Feb 18, 2014
    I look at it this way. Mace was completely justified in going to arrest Sheev because he was active on both sides of the war. However I doubt there was any law against the Sith having any sort of power in the Republican
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Given that the Sith had used that power to rule and enslave others, I'm going to think it was probably illegal. Otherwise, he wouldn't hide that he was a Sith.

    Actually, Harry did act within the law as much as he despised the changes made during the late 60's. That was the point of the confrontation with Lt. Briggs and the rogue cops.

    No one is denying that Palpatine lied about his situation. The point is that Palpatine manipulated both Jedi into doing what he wanted, by exploiting the Jedi Code, just as the Jedi had manipulated the Sith using the greedy nature of the Sith against them. He conned Anakin into thinking that the Jedi were in active rebellion against the government and that his death would result in Padme's death. And he got Mace to break the Code, mere days after Anakin did the same thing and felt guilty over it.

    This ain't the wild west. Even the wild west wasn't the wild west. In the real world, this happens all the time. If a cop chooses to use excessive force after a surrender, that officer will be held accountable.

    The Republic has similar laws and so does the Jedi Order. That's why Anakin feels guilty after killing Dooku, instead of feeling justified.

    Right, but Anakin also was taught that the Jedi are supposed to adhere to the Code and not behave as he had done. He knows that what he has done to date was wrong, but he was also told that Jedi like Mace Windu, would adhere to the Code. So when someone that he admired once starts behaving in a way that contradicts thirteen years of training, what do you think he's supposed to think? To feel?

    The Senate still exists regardless of what Palpatine had done up to that point and what happened with the Separatists. Palpatine is not the government yet. It is still the legitimate government and that doesn't change even after re-branding it as the Empire. This only changes after the war is long over.

    There's only one Sith Lord now and Grievous is dead. The Citadel is still under Jedi control and already has Pong Krell and Barriss Offee locked inside. The Council will assign all the best Jedi to stand guard. Ones who cannot be swayed by him.

    The Clone Army can only issue Protocol 66 if he is able to do so, which he does not issue until after Mace is dead. You think the Jedi will let him near a comlink? Oh and Palpatine himself never communicated with the Kaminoans. Dooku did and he's dead as a doornail. The military leadership was mostly in favor of the Chancellor, but once accused of crimes, they would stand down save for Tarkin and Krennic. But they don't have the resources to act. The Separatist Council will surrender once they learn that Grievous is dead and Sidious has been captured. The Clone Army and the Republic military will continue to try and maintain order along with the Jedi and local security.

    The Jedi aren't pacifists, but they're also not cold blooded killers who do as they wish and break their Code on a whim. That's how the Sith came about. That's why Obi-wan doesn't kill Anakin on Mustafar and why Luke spares his father and his nephew.
    ChefCurryWindu likes this.
  4. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Oct 17, 2015
    In my defense, the last time I saw Dirty Harry was on a flight from Singapore to New Jersey in May 2005.

    Regardless, the point stands. Mace Windu is supposed to be a Jedi Master, not Joe Arpaio.
  5. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 13, 2011
    It is interesting that the link between Anakin's execution of Dooku, and Mace's actions here, are presented in two different ways in the movie and novelisation, but are still quite present in both.

    In the film you have Anakin's repeated dialogue -
    Anakin: "...Yes but he was an unarmed prisoner. I shouldn't have done that, it's not the Jedi way."
    then later
    Anakin: "It's not the Jedi way! He must live!"

    and in the novel -
    (Mace): "He's too dangerous to be left alive. If you could have taken Dooku alive, would you have?"
    Skywalker's face swept itself clean of emotion. "That was different--"
    (Perhaps Yoda's "Only different in your mind" has some relevance here.)

    Either way, the implication in what causes Anakin to lose faith in the Jedi enough to turn, is woven into the movies.
    For example, as morbid as it sounds; notice it is always a beheading taking place when a Jedi ultimately fails.
    Anakin beheads the first Tuskens he kills when his mother dies - this is his "Dagobah cave" failure, albeit further down the dark path than Luke's failure (beheading the Vader apparition) took Luke in ESB.
    Then there is also Anakin beheading Dooku (his Master's master's master, a "great grandfather" in a way) matching Mace attempting to behead Palpatine for the greater good. It seems interwoven from this angle.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
  6. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 12, 2014

    Yes I think the film was brilliant showing us how Windu/the Jedi actually had Palpatine at the end of a lightsaber. This was the moment. This was the defining moment in time that would decide the fate of the galaxy and set the course of history. Palpatine was about to lose. And it is Anakin's turn, his betrayal that takes us down one path of events versus another.

    I personally thought the Republic was utterly corrupt. In that way, Palpatine was right. And the Empire certainly brought about a needed change. But I didn't think the Jedi were evil. Mixing those two issues is where the problem is. If only Palpatine and the Jedi worked together. Oh the possibilities.

    But back to the point, yes Mace Windu's decision might have been out of the strictly legal parameters, but indeed it was for the "Greater good" and he had given the Sith Lord two chances to surrender. The rest of the arrest team were taken out.

    I think Mace's line to Anakin that, "He has control of the Senate and the Courts! He's too dangerous to be left alive!" was pertinent. Windu had exhausted his options and had tried his very best to make this an arrest. But he was then going to do what had to be done.

    I do think though, the Jedi actions were akin to a coup. Palpatine was the legitimate leader of the Galactic Republic. The Jedi Council were attempting to take over as he said. Of course their reasons were legitimate and morally correct also. Not only was Palpatine manipulating the entire situation, but he had deceived everyone and in theory was a traitor as Windu said.

    Interesting political set up! Had Windu succeeded, it would have been a Jedi coup and indeed a Jedi led junta (as espoused but the Council once Anakin left the room) running the Republic for the foreseeable future until a peaceful transition was complete. Would they relinquish their power? Palpatine hinted at this during his Plageuis speech in the Opera house.

    Palpatine winning the struggle owing to Anakin's betrayal was perhaps his sweet victory. And all the more ironic, since as commander of the Galactic Republic, he also issued a legal executive order to eliminate the Jedi, now enemies of the Republic! It was masterful storytelling. And I suppose a legitimate order given he is the highest ranking person who outranks the Jedi generals (who had failed to remove him). However, that they were killed without a trial either, one wonders whether Anakin really cared about such things.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
  7. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 8, 2016
    The Jedi were legally in the wrong in this instance. It was a coup. Mace heard Anakin spill the beans and the Jedi who had already been searching for a Sith Lord in Palpatine's inner circle and who knew something was amiss decided that was it he was going to deal with this situation now and then.
    DarthTalonx likes this.
  8. bizzbizz

    bizzbizz Jedi Knight star 4

    Dec 16, 2015
    im a fan of palpatine knowing the strengths and weaknesses of all of the masters so to me he played mace like a puppet master in that duel he calls to anakin to tempt him to come knowing he will. he just has to stall for time which he does now i do believe mace would of arrested him until the whole lightning thing but in my head cannon thats palps playing at mace's emotions/ego knowing he is the most bloodthirsty of the council.
  9. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 12, 2014
    Agreed. They might have been morally right, but it was a Jedi coup. And since it failed (owing to Anakin's betrayal), it played right into Palpatine's hands.

    I love how Mace bested Palpatine and yet again offered him the chance to surrender. That line, "You are under arrest, my Lord!" is golden.

    But it was a coup. Had the Jedi won, Mace and the Council would have run the Republic as a Jedi junta, commanding the Grand Army.

    Since they lost, they were declared enemies of the Republic.
    Sith Lord 2015 likes this.