CT In A New Hope, was Grand Moff Tarkin a higher rank than Darth Vader?

Currently, in the new Canon, Leia spoke like that as an extension of her mocking Tarkin by mocking his accent.

 

Is that alluded to in Bloodlines? I haven't finished that book yet. But at any rate, she also speaks that way to Vader.

 

Yeah, Leia is reminiscing at one point and thinks about that point in ANH.

 

I remember Lucas saying in the commentary for ANH that in the Empire Vader and Tarkin along with other very high ranking officers are all on the same tier. So in that sense Vader and Tarkin share the same rank but they have very different jobs. Tarkin is a Governor and a Military Commander while Vader fills any position the Emperor needs him to fill be that chasing down Rebels or skulking in the shadows or putting the fear of the Empire into the hearts of planets.

 

I'm reminded of an old saying about authority: you have as much as you can take. Tarkin and Vader would both take as much as they could, with little regard for restrictive rules or limits.

 

In the 1976 discussions with Alan Dean Foster about Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Lucas complains that the first SW film suggests Tarkin is a higher rank than Vader, when in fact Vader should outrank Tarkin.

Which is a case of Lucas dissing his own film for doing exactly what he intended. Up until the fourth-draft script in January 1976, Lucas wanted Vader to be the film's main Imperial bad guy, one step below the Emperor, as he is in ESB. But as 1975 ended and Fox imposed budget cuts, Lucas became extremely scared that SW wouldn't make enough money to get any sequels, and the multi-film saga he'd planned to tell would never come to pass.

For this reason, Lucas cut out several controversial ideas he'd been considering, in the name of family-friendly moviegoing and box-office profit; onscreen nudity, Wagnerian themes of incest, etc. But he also reworked the story of the film, so that it could serve as a standalone movie in itself if necessary. Thus it was now stated explicitly that Vader killed Luke's father, and Tarkin was added to the roster of bad guys, as a suitable proxy for the Emperor whose death would signal the inevitable defeat of the Empire's regime.

Thus Tarkin's authority as proxy-Emperor outranks Vader's on screen. The problem was, while this was good for one film, it didn't gel very well with the multi-film saga Lucas had wanted in 1975, and to which he would return after the first film's spectacular success.

 

It´s a good question indeed... I´ve always figured that Tarkin was the commander of the Death Star, and Vader was basically sent there to "assist him", in other words, to make sure that Tarkin (and everyone else) had a constant reminder of the Emperor´s authority there. So Vader killing a top ranking officer of said station because of a personal issue not only undermined his role as an observer, but also complicated things unnecessarily for Tarkin himself, who by the way would look pretty bad if Vader kills a top ranking officer of his battle station every time he pleases.

I think Vader also understands this too, and so, with his point already made, had no problem to let go of the issue. In fact, later Tarkin does follows Vader´s plan even if he doesn't seem to be very much up for it. I think they are meant to be very close in rank (Vader is higher, perhaps, but also less defined, it would seem) and in particular they seem to respect each other based on years of working together doing evil deeds. Legends had Tarkin as Vader´s most vocal supporter in Coruscant´s politics, and they seemed also to respect each other on Rogue One, so I get the feeling Tarkin is one of the few officers Vader really respects, and one of the few, in turn, who sees the advantages of working with the Sith Lord...

 

Yeah, Padme does the same thing when she's acting in her royal capacity in Episode I.

The idea that Leia is "making fun of" Tarkin is, quite frankly, incredibly silly.

 

It's about as silly as some notion of a 'Senatorial' voice. I mean, we don't see many politicians talk in an english accent when they want to get a point across.

 

It's a sign that Leia has been hanging around Coruscant and the Imperial Senate too long, so their accent is starting to rub off on her. As soon as she stops attending (because she's being tortured and the Senate is disbanded) it goes away.

 

No, but we see plenty of politicians, whose natural tendency is toward a pronounced regional dialect, affect a more Midwesternized General American accent when trying to appeal to a more national audience or assert an image of respectability. That's because that's the American prestige accent. In the Star Wars galaxy, the prestige accent is a Received Pronunciation British one, which we can see predominates among the high-born potentates of Coruscant society.

This also tracks with Carrie Fisher's subconscious intent with the adoption of the accent in those scenes, as described by her. This apparent alternative explanation that's being proffered is fairly unnecessary and counter-intuitive. It's also not really something that needed a secret EU explanation.

 

Well if it's canon, it's canon. But it just didn't seem very plausible to me. I always assumed it was just her diplomatic voice, that seemed like a simple enough explanation.

 

The only thing ancillary media can do is confuse things more IMHO. Lucasfilm used to say that with Star Wars, some windows are clearer than others, and the films themselves are the clearest windows to the GFFA.

Its pretty clear than Tarkin was in charge in ANH and outranked Vader who was portrayed as a agent outside of official command chain which freed him to do the odd and dirty jobs for the Empire. In ANH, Vader was put in charge of a task force to find the plans. In TESB, he was placed in charge of a even bigger task force to find Luke. In ROTJ, he was put in charge of getting the Endor trap ready. There is a deleted scene in ROTJ where Jepporried and the royal guards bar Vader from seeing the emperor. When Vader tries to choke Jepporried, the royal guards where going to attack Vader when Jepporied explains it is the emperor's orders, so Vader relents and walks away with the guards still ready to strike him. At best, l would say Vader is a high ranking agent, who goes around getting the dirty jobs done.

 

Vader isn't just a High Ranking Agent though. Thanks to the prequels, we know that the Emperor is a Sith Lord, and Vader is also a Sith Lord - his apprentice.

 

But the prequels hadn't happened yet. Darth wasn't anything more than his name. The emperor wasn't in it.

 

Not just the prequels. Even by TESB it becomes established that the Emperor is a fellow Force user and therefore likely enjoys a much more intimate connection to Vader than was perhaps previously suspected.

This much is true. But I assumed we were taking the entire saga into account for this discussion. For my part, I find that Lucas's own words on the subject manage to harmonize the situation in A New Hope with the later-established context. Vader enjoys a privileged position with the Emperor, but that doesn't mean that that privileged position is beyond challenge. During the period in which A New Hope takes place, Vader's star has fallen a bit with the Emperor since he was a virile young man with the full use of his body, and as a result he has to put up with being bossed around by the Imperial governors who are increasingly coming to be seen as more useful to the Emperor's grand designs.

With the destruction of the Death Star, the balance of power shifts back in Vader's favor, which is why he's suddenly riding so high in TESB.

 

I like how this is subtly addressed in R1. The way Vader, Tarkin, and Krennic's characters interact and speak of one another sheds light on the relationship. Krennic's (approx dialog) "it's a pity the Emperor and Lord Vader couldn't be here" during the demonstration and how the film implies he his going over Tarkin's head to Vader it feels to me like clearing the lines of the Emperor being the king and Vader the prince.

Now, six SW films were released between ANH and R1, so going by ONLY ANH I think a case can be made for either being of "higher rank," but that Vader is ultimately the one in control. However, I actually like that there is some ambiguity on the topic as it creates a richness to the narrative. I appreciated the analogy used earlier in the thread about Tarkin being the "captain" of the DS, with Vader being outside and above the military command structure. Vader's acquiescence to Tarkin's "Vader, release him" with "as you wish" always seemed to me, through how the line is delivered and the scene is set up, to be implying that Vader will follow Tarkin's requests to a point, but a reminder that he (Vader) has the personal power to direct things if he feels they are going off a course that the Emperor (and DV himself) would like. There is also, as many have stated, a clear history and respect between the two as shown by Tarkin's use of "you, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." I can't really see Vader tolerating anyone else within the Imperial Military calling him "friend."

 

Agreed. Tarkin took charge of the Death Star and it was his to control. Vader was like a sword the Empire wielded to clean up problems around the galaxy. Just as Tarkin ordered to destroy the Scarif base, and added "Vader will handle the fleet."

 

That makes it even more apparent that Vader is indeed a agent. In TPM, Maul is sent to do the dirty work.In AOTC and ROTS, Dooku is tasked to run the CIS as well as doing the dirty work of ordering the clone army and organizing the guilds into the CIS. To Palps, apprentices are quite disposable. Now Vader and Palps did have a special relationships, but only with force matters and it was a toxic relationship with both looking to betray the other. This is why Palps would want Vader to be in a easily disposable position. Even those weird adviser guys probably outranked Vader, who Palps pretty much treated as a child.

 

I liken Vader to a Soviet Commissar, outside of the military chain of command but possessing the authority to order and mete out punishment. But he clearly respected Tarkin, who had many more years of experience than he did and was quite possibly even more ruthless. We like to think of Vader as this supreme villain, capable in every way, but perhaps he had his limitations. As a tactician, for example - the botched operation on Hoth (see the Wired article, "The Empire Strikes Out") seems to support this. Vader had the wisdom to acknowledge this and found value in having Tarkin call the shots on strategy for the greater glory of the Empire.

 

It wasn't Vader's tactics that lead to the rebels escaping on Hoth. It was Ozzel's clumsiness and Luke's personal bravery to hold back the assault on the power generator long enough for evacuation to take place.

 

This is the article I was referring to that points out the Sith Lord's failings:

https://www.wired.com/2013/02/battle-of-hoth/

 

It always felt to me that Vader has no military rank at all, which could mean either his "rank" is higher or lower than Tarkin's. He seemed to go along with Tarkin mostly to avoid conflict. Of course all this doesn't become clear in ANH, but with ROTS at the latest we learn that the true leaders of the Empire are two Sith Lords. Tarkin, as said before, is just a local governor or "captain" of the DS. Outside the DS I don't think he had much to say. That guy Toht in Raiders reminds me a little of Vader. He is never seen wearing a military uniform but seems to be in charge all the time, giving orders. Not sure if this is canon or not, just my impression from watching the movies.

 

....By making stuff up that isn't in the film (Ties can fly through the Rebel Shield?), and using a perverse interpretation of the battle of Yavin and the skills of the rebel pilots. All but three of whom perished. And it ignores the intervention from a force ghost and an unforeseen Jedi candidate which only prevented the complete destruction of the rebellion at the last moment.