PT In defense of the prequels

You mean like we got with Luke and Han in ANH? Oh wait....

 

Maychild: Apologies. After reading your following post, I do agree that Luke and Han's is pretty poor as well.

 

We actually saw them become friends through trials of fire. Han not believing Luke about the Force to saving each others neck on the DS to the talk at the Yavin base to Han saving Luke at the end.
What did we get from Anakin and Obi-Wan? Hi I'm so and so and later I'm going to train you.

 

At the end. Up until then all they do is be shallow and sarcastic to each other. Luke had to bribe Han into helping him rescue the princess. Even after their "trial by fire," Han still says he's "in it for the money" and prepares to leave with his reward.

Then we got friendship -- a prickly friendship, which Anakin was beginning to chafe under Obi Wan's tutelage, but nonetheless a friendship -- in AOTC and the beginning of ROTS.

Would I have liked to see more? Sure. But I'm sick of people acting like Han and Luke's friendship was so wonderful and deep and well-developed.

 

Personally I think relationships are the films *weakest* point. The strongest for me are Tarkin and Vader and Anakin and Palps.

 

I like them too. Their relationship tends to get overlooked.

 

It does and it's such a joy to see.

 

RE: The character relationships...

It's true that Han is a little selfish in ANH, but it's not one-dimensional IMO. One gets the sense that he would like to rescue Leia, but in a way that agrees with his conscience. Luke offers him that way. The reward is more of a psychological carrot: the "excuse" he needs to hear to do it. The scene in the cockpit, just after Leia has rebuked Han, makes clear (look at Harrison's face) that Han is struggling with where his loyalties lie: to his personal code or to a greater sense of community and belonging. The hangar scene revisits this conflict with Han's "May the Force be with you" to Luke and his half-heartedly fighting off Chewie's objection: "I know what I'm doing". There are strong hints that meeting Luke, and then Leia, has stirred something within him. I would contend that there is a subtext to Han and Luke's relationship, which is one in a number of relatively sophisticated elements that make the picture a thrill to revisit.

But there is equally (or moreso) oodles and oodles of subtext to Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship in AOTC and across the prequel movies. The characters might be at each other's throats some of the time, but that very antagonism is, to some extent, an outgrowth of the concern and grudging respect each has for the other. In Anakin's eyes, Obi-Wan's a Jedi princeling, and the "father" -- or pseudo-father -- he's desperate to please. If he must surpass Obi-Wan, he still wants Obi-Wan to recognize it when it comes. Arrogance? Yes. But there's a deeper craving at work as well. In Obi-Wan's eyes, Anakin is reckless, unwise, and determined not to listen to his reliable wisdom (I'm obviously talking about AOTC here). There is some arrogance in that view as well, yet there is also genuine concern and worry. As Obi-Wan confides to Padme's security chief, "I do hope he doesn't try anything foolish" as Anakin departs on his very first assignment. Later, he laments being unable to track Anakin, stating, "I do hope nothing's happened to him". Of course, he quickly forgets this soft "prayer" when he discovers that Anakin is mysteriously (or perhaps not so mysteriously) on Tatooine, railing with indignation, "What in the blazes is he doing there? I told him to stay on Naboo." The annoyance that Anakin has, again, not listened to him, can't help but show itself. Yet this is hardly the only emotion Obi-Wan has toward Anakin -- even when he's being defiant. The speeder chase sketches out so much of the pair's anxieties and frustrations; even, to some extent, in a "jazzy" sense, their hopes and dreams for each other.

The original movie is somewhat revered for the "tension" and "bantering" that occurs between its leads. But when the prequels do it -- albeit, perhaps, without so much humour, looseness, or affection -- it's immediately bad. I don't think there is such a gaping disparity as has been suggested exists. I wouldn't have minded seeing a bit more of Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship in each of the movies, but arguably, one of the strengths of the newer movies is that they aren't over-reliant on this one aspect to drive the story. It's there, but in some ways it's more in the background. There is a wider, more worldly, panoramic approach to the storytelling.

Lastly, Tarkin and Vader. Yes! I love that relationship (though I think that's a bit of an odd/strained word in their case). Peter Cushing, in particular, is a real boon to ANH. His character and his performance are still a highlight of the whole series IMO. He plays that part with such steely conviction. The eloquent precision of the man is riveting and memorable. One of fantasy cinema's greatest "villains".

All JMO.

 

Wow. Thanks!

Sometimes, I might like to think a matter is a bit more objective (though it might not be, of course) -- but there, I really was just giving personal opinions.

Cool that people sometimes agree.

 

The scene on Padmé's balcony as well, just before the assassin droid drops the worms in.

And another little moment which people often forget, but which I think speaks volumes about their relationship, is just after the disastrous reunion between the three leads in Padmé's apartment. Anakin thinks Padmé's completely forgotten about him. Obi-Wan replies, "You're focusing on the negative," and adds, with very fatherly and almost tender reassurance, "She was pleased to see us."

This is immediately after Anakin's insubordination has completely, painfully embarrassed both himself and Obi-Wan. Yet Obi-Wan acts like the offence (which I imagine is a grave one in the context of Eastern-influenced Jedi culture and expectations of the master-apprentice relationship) is already forgotten. He knows Anakin has inappropriate (for a Jedi) feelings for Padmé. Instead of reprimanding him for his attachment, as evinced by his anxieties over what or whether Padmé thinks of him, or even silently overlooking it so as not to encourage it, Obi-Wan reassures him of Padmé's regard for him. That, to me, is clear evidence that Obi-Wan did see and love Anakin as a person, and did attempt to adapt his teaching of Jedi ways to accommodate Anakin's particular needs.

I'm not sure how demonstrative people expect them to be with their relationship. How warm 'n' fuzzy and buddy-ish are most nineteen-year-old boys (or girls, for that matter) with their fathers? Factor in Jedi culture, and I think what we see in AotC is more than enough to convince me that they cared very deeply about each other. And the PT set up its pivotal relationship, IMO, more economically than the OT did. I understand why not everyone likes it, but this elliptical style, in which we get only hints and flashes of the glimmering depths, works for me.

 

Era bias. Ewoks beat Clonetroopers, Deathstar beats Coruscant, General Nadine over Jango Fett.....you know the drill.

 

That may be how you read it but it's very simplistic of you.

 

Who are you kidding man ive given you at least 196 likes.

 

One question: can you give me 196 more?

Sincerely, thanks. Of course, people do agree sometimes.

It's just, given how stormy discussions tend to be, that basic fact can be forgotten. Hence my response.

 

I also really like the elevator scene that introduces us to them (which Lucas actually added in pick-ups). It starts out with a glimmer of what their relationship will mature into in TCW and the start of Episode III, with the two of them playfully bickering with each other, and Obi-Wan willingly conceding Anakin's superior skills as a Jedi. Then Anakin opens up to Obi-Wan about his feelings, to which Obi-Wan genuinely tries to empathize with Anakin and give him helpful advice, though he doesn't quite succeed. That short exchange basically encapsulates everything about their relationship, emphasizing both its positives and negatives in a rather benign--even pleasant--way. It's not a simple relationship. They're not quite father and son, not quite brothers, and not quite buddies, but at the same time they're all three.

Everyone wanted the rosy view of their relationship which Obi-Wan relates to Luke in that hut to be made an uncomplicated reality in the prequels, but, for better or for worse, that wasn't the case. In A New Hope, all we knew was that Obi-Wan and Anakin were good friends, and that Obi-Wan's troubled student, Darth Vader, betrayed and murdered Anakin. But by Return of the Jedi, we know that Anakin was actually that troubled student. People focus too much on what Obi-Wan says in "certain point-of-view" mode, and pretty much ignore what he says when he finally comes clean to Luke. It's a part of the selective memory of the OT that plagues many people who were annoyed with the PT's "departures" from it.

 

The problem with it , from my point of view, is there really was too much story for 3 movies. We never see Anakin get trained, which is one of the thing's i would have expected going in. We never see them be friend's. Anakin and Obi-Wan are not on screen together for about half of ATOC. The story had to be that way, and he wanted to show Anakin growing up chafing under Obi-Wan's direction but it just didn't leave much time to show them as friend's.

 

Remove Qui-Gon and insert Obi-Wan in his place in TPM and problem partially solved.

 

The tension between those different dimensions of their relationship is what makes it the most fascinating one in the Saga for me, and far more interesting than Luke and Han's fairly straightforward "friendship forged through shared trials, with the brief (and frankly quotidian) tension of competing for the same woman".

There are two reasons I have to respectfully disagree with the many people who think Obi-Wan should have filled Qui-Gon's role.

1) Seeing Obi-Wan as a brash, strutting twenty-five-year-old, a somewhat bratty and supercilious and yet earnest Padawan, gives him a complete character arc that sharpens the pathos of what we know about him from the OT.

And much more importantly:

2) It creates the tension I referred to above, which I think is not only vital to the story of Anakin's fall, but also adds a great deal to the Saga's theme of fathers and sons (and all the dysfunction that can come out of those relationships). Obi-Wan and Anakin start out as sons of a common father, with rather more than garden-variety sibling rivalry between them -- Anakin knows that Obi-Wan knows (and bitterly resents) that Anakin is his replacement. By AotC, Anakin sees Obi-Wan like a father; but we know from RotS that Obi-Wan has, and perhaps always had, a different perception of the nature of their relationship. One speculates that this is why he was seldom what Anakin needed him to be. The seeds of that tragic mismatch of expectations are sown in TPM, and their shoots obliquely visible in AotC.

We know that Qui-Gon didn't appear until a fairly late draft of TPM. But his addition, and all its ramifications for Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship, is pretty brilliant and really kind of perfect, IMO. Ditching the creation of that emotionally-complex, loaded and largely-subtextual tension, in favour of workmanlike exposition of a straightforward Master/apprentice relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan in TPM, would make the Saga far less interesting -- for me at least.

 

Every scene they're together in II and III is a scene of them being friends. Friends comfort each other, joke with each other, argue with each other, and work together as allies. We see all of that, in spades. I really would like to know exactly what people wanted that they didn't get. If they wanted Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship to be a non-stop buddy comedy, well, I don't think that was a realistic expectation.

And I'm not sure why so many people are dying to see Anakin "get trained." We don't need to see Obi-Wan teaching Anakin how to swing a lightsaber around with a blast helmet on and rapping his knuckles when he gets it wrong. Why would that be important? The important thing is that we get a sense of his relationship with Obi-Wan, and we get that perfectly fine without seeing his training.

That would suck, because Qui-Gon is a great character. And you can't just give Qui-Gon's character traits to Obi-Wan, because it wouldn't make sense at that point in the story.

 

every scene? He mostly scolds Anakin up until he leave's for Kamino.

 

They're not exactly John and John-Boy Walton, but that is exactly why AotC Obi-Wan-&-Anakin looks to me like a very realistic and human portrayal of the relationship between a fractious adolescent and a man who's basically his teacher, spiritual advisor, single parent and grumpy big brother all in one.

 

Yes, because he cares about him. If he didn't give a crap about Anakin's well-being, he'd just be like, "Yeah, okay, do whatever you want." That's how Palpatine treated Anakin, but he definitely was not his friend. Not in a true sense, at least (Cryogenic has pointed out in another thread that Palpatine did seem to have a genuine--though twisted--fondness for Anakin).

But I think their interactions are more balanced than you give them credit for.

 

of course he cares.