Senate [In-Depth Discussion] United States presidential election: 2012

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by kingthlayer, Mar 4, 2011.

  1. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    When the "concern" about someone "not filling the requirements of an office" is that they're white, i.e. birthers, in addition to being stupid to the point of requiring sterilisation, are struggling to cope with a black man in the Presidency. :)
  2. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    TheShinyLightsaber is a sock/troll, ignore it.
  3. TheShinyLightsaber Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 1
    You don't get to do that, sorry.
    Last edited by JoinTheSchwarz, Nov 7, 2012
  4. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
  5. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Oh, hi Flare!
  6. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Ignore the troll. Just completely ignore.



    Back on topic... I only wish Bachmann had lost, she came so close to losing.

    I am absolutely thrilled with everything else.

    But why is it taking so long to call Florida? It's 100% in for half the day, and Obama is 50,000 ahead.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Nov 7, 2012
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  7. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Florida is too busy with the Disney Central debate with Star Wars ownership to care about a silly election.
    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi likes this.
  8. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    To my knowledge an assault weapon is a semi-automatic rifle like the AR-15. Shoots higher caliber rounds than a pistol, with greater accuracy at distance and at higher velocity, giving it greater penetrating power. Am I right so far? And someone who owns one would outgun your average police officer on the street. As for a high capacity magazine, a typical pistol would have 9 rounds in it if I'm not mistaken, so such a magazine would be anything that expands that number.

    Not sure I follow you. People can have sex however they want in their bedroom because it doesn't affect anyone else. But firearms do affect others, because when there's a proliferation of guns then mishaps are more prone to happen. Either they fall into the wrong hands, or a law-abiding gunowner loses his temper and ceases to be law-abiding.

    What do you mean they don't work? If the ban was in effect and it prevented them from carrying more rounds per magazine, then didn't the ban save lives? How many more might've died without the ban?
    Last edited by Alpha-Red, Nov 7, 2012
  9. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    I'm not being snarky here, but you are wrong on all accounts. seriously.

    1)An assault weapon is a fully automatic rifle which fires an intermediate caliber between a full size battle rifle and a submachine gun. Normal people can't buy assault weapons except under extremely regulated instances. You just supplied the media-driven definition which has nothing to do with how firearms function, and only marginally applies to how they look. I don't know what "outguns your average police officer" means. Would a police officer rather be shot by a boring 12 gauge shotgun as long as it only has wood stocks and didn't look "evil?" Again, not being snarky.

    As far as high capacity magazines, it again depends. A standard run of the mill Beretta holds 15 rounds, so you would have to reduce a standard magazine to get to 9. A Colt 1911, which fires a larger caliber, holds 8 rounds, so you would have to extend the magazine to get to 9 rounds. A .357 magnum hold 6 rounds, but also comes in a 8 round cylinder. A .22 plinking rifle might hold 20 or 30 bullets which is a step above a pellet gun. An Elk hunting rifle might only hold 3-4 massive bullets. The old, meaningless magazine ban arbitrarily set everything at 10. But which is better, to reduce a 9mm Beretta, or increase an .45 1911? Which one, in your opinion, is "high capacity," and which one represents outgunning any other example? How does any of this impact public safety, if there is a point at all? This is why all this is meaningless.
  10. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Actually, no. Your description there is both wrong and meaningless.

    First, it's wrong in that an "assault weapon" doesn't shoot higher caliber rounds than a pistol. Remember, caliber is a measure of the bullet's diameter. For example, the AR-15 typically comes in .223 Remington or 5.56mm NATO (you can get it in other calibers, up to .50 BMG, but those are far less common). That's a bullet with just under a quarter of an inch diameter. The 1911 pistol typically comes in .45 ACP (although you can get it in other calibers). That's a bullet with a diameter of just under a half inch. The 1911 is higher caliber than the AR-15.

    Second, what you described there fits all rifles, whether it's a bolt-action, semi-automatic, pump action, and so forth. The same .223 Remington round that you put into an AR-15 can be fired (with similar ballistics) through a Tikka T3 bolt-action rifle. The same .45 ACP round that I fire from my 1911s can be loaded into a Thompson Machine Gun (although the ballistics will be different because of the barrel lengths).

    As for a typical pistol magazine, it depends on the caliber of the pistol and its design. The Glock 17 (one of the most popular handguns out there) comes standard with a 17-round magazine. The 1911 generally comes with a 7-round or 8-round magazine. Some .22LR pistols have magazines around 20 rounds standard. The Beretta M9 carried by the military (92FS for civilians) is standard at 15 rounds. Pretty much any number that you pick will be arbitrary, and ultimately ineffective.

    Or a law abiding gun owner uses the gun to protect himself.

    99.9% of the guns in the US are not used each year to injure or kill other people. Estimates range from 50 to 100 million handguns in the US alone (not counting rifles or shotguns), and yet each year there are only on the order of 17000 gun deaths in the US, and about half of those are suicides.

    A trained individual can reload a gun in a fraction of a second. It doesn't take much training, only practice. When the high-capacity ban proves ineffective, what will you propose next? A limit on the number of magazines a person can own?

    In fact, in the Aurora shooting, the high-capacity magazine that Holmes used actually saved lives. Why? Because although it holds 100 rounds, it also jammed (which large capacity magazines tend to do, which is why the military doesn't use them except in very limited circumstances), and forced him to clear the jam and switch magazines before he could continue his rampage. The vast majority of high capacity magazines are used as "range toys", so that people can spend more time shooting on the range, rather than reloading.

    In other words, your proposed solution would be ineffective and would disproportionately affect law-abiding citizens. It also does not address the actual problem that you want to attack. Your proposal fails on all three of my criteria.
  11. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Thought the 1911 was 7+1 and the 92F was 15+1?
  12. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    The +1 indicates a round in the chamber, which is irrelevant if we're discussing magazine sizes.

    It depends on what model you have. My compact Officer's model 1911 uses a standard 6-round magazine. My full-size Government model came with 8-round magazines, and you can find some surplus 7-round ones around. (I can use the larger magazines in my Officer's model, but the Officer's model magazines are about a half inch too short to use in the full-size 1911.)
  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Right, but 44 listed the 92S as a 15 round mag and the 1911 as an 8 round mag. :p
  14. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    And 8-rounds is one of the standard options for a 1911. You tend to find it more in the high-end magazines, but (for example) that's what my Colt came with. The 8-round magazines are even the same physical size as the 7-round surplus magazines I picked up years ago. The only real difference is in the internal spring and follower.

    Hence, my Colt came as 8+1, while my Rock Island (Officer's) came as a 6+1. (I use Wilson Combat Officer's magazines, which are 7-rounds, plus the one in the chamber.)
    Last edited by Kimball_Kinnison, Nov 7, 2012
  15. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Because you never would've heard it if he were white. He is the 'other' as far as Republicans are concerned.
  16. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    KK I called Mr44 on an error and you are ruining it. Please cease and/or desist or I'll become a US citizen and vote Demmycrat.
    KnightWriter likes this.
  17. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Don't make threats you'll regret.

    8-round is one of the standard magazines for a 1911. :)
  18. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Guys, can we get this back to more politics, and less guns?
  19. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    Yeah, the Tea Party/GOP never made nearly as much hay about McCain's being born outside the US when he was running for President in '08.
  20. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    I wasn't aware there were allegations that McCain's mother wasn't his mother. Which is the only way you could get a system that McCain wasn't a citizen. (or possibly that his father wasn't his father; I've not checked in a while on this)
    Last edited by Lowbacca_1977, Nov 7, 2012
  21. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    He was born on a Naval air station in the Panama Canal. When the issue of whether he could legally be elected President because of that was raised in '08, it was very quickly reviewed and concluded that, he was a natural born citizen, depsite not being born in a US state, and he was eligible to run.

    Four years later, and you still have the birthers filing legal challenges claiming the President, (despite going so far as releasing his long form birth certificate stating he was born in Hawaii), is a foreign national, who forged his documentation and thus, in their view, ineligible to be the currently sitting President.:rolleyes:
    Last edited by Juliet316, Nov 7, 2012
  22. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Well, of course; as they reason it, no black man could sit in that hallowed office. I mean, erm, deeply concerned about the consitution!
    KnightWriter likes this.
  23. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    So the reason they tried to get Clinton impeached for something fairly trivial (compared to things they've done) was because he was called the first black president?
    Juliet, I know where he was born. And there's no implication that he wasn't born on American soil, and his mother was a US citizen and 24 years old, and that his father wasn't also an American citizen. (I believe the biggest key bit is that both parents were US citizens)

    In contrast, there's a couple dumb quotes implying that Obama wasn't actually born in Hawaii here and there, and it actually would make a difference here. If he was born to only one US citizen, not on American soil, to a mother that spent less than 5 years living in the US over the age of 16 at that time (and she hadn't just due to age), then he wouldn't have been a naturally-born citizen. Obviously, the one bit that changes all this is that he was born in Hawaii. But given an opening, it's not surprising that people have hitched themselves to it. McCain isn't the example (since nothing was being doubted there), I'd say Chester A. Arthur is a better example, with some rumors that he was born in Canada. Which was basically just politically motivated attempts to knock Chester Arthur out of the vice-presidency.
  24. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I'm not suggesting the right in America isn't dumber, more shrill, and more extreme than their counterparts elsewhere Lowie. Are you, however, suggesting that birthers are anything but racist?
  25. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    One more gun thing. I never make an error, or joke about firearms... What I did forget is how behind the land down under is. Seriously, 7 rnd 1911 magazines are curios, or are only purchased surplus by those who want to stock up with cheap practice magazines, or who want to keep their 1911 in stock/historical condition. So if you want to be quaint, or are a HUGE John Wayne fan, you'd go with the original 7 rounders. The standard 1911 mag has been the 8 rounder for the majority of new models for a while now. (except as KK pointed out, for shorter versions) Now, the extended 1911 magazine holds 10 rounds, but it has a little metal lip were it rests on the grip because the additional 2 stick out....

    So, the real question is, how is the acid wash jean fad down there? I hear they're the latest thing.... ;)