In God we trust debate AGAIN!

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by jedifighter, Jul 11, 2002.

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  1. jedifighter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 3
    There has been rumors that the "In God we trust shouldn't be put on money, plege,ect. Should we leave it on or take it off?

    Locked by request.
  2. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    Another leave God out of the government debate.

    YIPPEE! :)


    I say get rid of it.

    God that is, but only when dealing with government documents/institutions/so on and so forth.

    Latre! :D
  3. DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2001
    star 4
    I give up. This country is going to hell in a hand basket.

    Change this, change that.

    Burn this, burn that.

    I'm offended, I'm hurt.


    You know I have a question for all of you. Why don't you post every single that offends you in this country. From the government not using your favorite color, to the democrats using a Donkey for a symbol. Just list them please for me. All this junk is getting rediculous. I'm a non-practicing Christian which means I'm not reaching my conclusions based on Religion, but I've reached my conclusions on the fact that there is a small group of "so called" Americans who want to change ever little thing which isn't Politically Correct. This has become my ultimate Pet Peeve. It's completely gone above people driving with Cell Phones to their ears.

    Could this country get anymore lame then wanting to change this and that. It's not like your going to stop using money because it's says "In God we Trust"
  4. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    Well actually I only use debit/credit cards and checks because I am so offended by "In God We Trust" on our paper and coin money. ;)

    And if in a real pinch, I go back to the old trade system. :p


    Latre! :D
  5. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    Get rid of it. Like god in the pledge, it's a sad leftover from a very paranoid time in our country, and is outdated.
  6. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Well, the only reason I would agree with the pledge is that it was put in to fight the 'goddless commies.' However, was "in god we trust" but in for the same reason?

    If not, then get over it. The government wont be using this to take away more of our rights. It wont be some sort of precident of religion in our government. It is not trying to brain wash our kids. It simply is.
  7. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Did I miss something? Did God stand us up last week, and we don't trust him any longer? What's untrustworthy about a benign creator?




  8. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    Enforcer: Actually "In God We Trust" was a change to our national motto. The original was drafted by three of our nation's founders... E Pluribus Unum.

    Personally, I find this motto much more reflective of our national character, and it doesn't violate the First Amendment's Establishment clause.

    Did I miss something? Did God stand us up last week, and we don't trust him any longer? What's untrustworthy about a benign creator?

    So you're implying that Christians would stop trusting God if we didn't have it printed on state currency? Oh no! What will we do! God isn't being printed on every single coin! People who believe in "God" will suddenly all lose faith, and people who don't believe in "God" still won't. (quotes and caps indicating the use of this word is predominantly a Christian theological construct).

    Oh my! The world will stop revolving if we restore our Pledge and our Motto to their original non-religious form! Christians are incapable of finding time to worship "God" in their churches and in their homes, they must do it in the schools, in the banks, on the street, on the subway, at the gym, on the operating table, at the jewelry store, in the courtroom, in the shower, on the toilet, in their sleep, on the basketball court, on the phone, in the car, in their underwear, in your house, in my house, in your face... and so on.

    It's not enough to have the freedom to have a church (tax-exempt, mind you) and a home to pray in... on their time. They must do it on our time and our money. Why if they have their own venues are they opposed to the separation of church and state so much as to suggest change is bad (Wasn't the motto and pledge changed as a result of Christian lobbying in the first place? Is change only good when it favors Christians or theists in general?)? There's only one reason why one would want to do that... to force exposure on us... that's called proselytization.
  9. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    Exactly SnowDog! Exactly!

    Latre! :D
  10. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Actually, I was just taking the piss out of this discussion.
  11. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    I'm not going to discuss whether "In God We Trust" intrinsically should be put on coins, because that's a much more complicated issue. I'm simply going to deal with whether or not the practice complies with the United States constitution. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment reads:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

    The key word here is "establishment". Congress is prohibited from establishing religion--it must be religiously neutral, and it cannot favour or disfavour one religion over another.

    "In God We Trust" pertains to one particular religious doctrine--monotheism. Not all Americans are monotheists. Consequently, "In God We Trust" is constitutionally impermissable because it favours one religious view over another. It is identical to "In Vishnu We Trust", "In Allah We Trust", "In Buddah We Trust", or "In No God We Trust", because--to borrow a phrase from Circuit Judge Goodwin--none of these professions can be neutral with respect to religion.

    DARTHPIGFEET

    I give up. This country is going to hell in a hand basket.


    The existence and nature of hell is a religious matter. Consequently, it's an inappropriate basis on which to draw up laws.

    Change this, change that.

    Burn this, burn that.

    I'm offended, I'm hurt.


    The Establishment Clause was enacted two centuries ago. It is the "In God We Trust" people that want to change things.

    You know I have a question for all of you. Why don't you post every single that offends you in this country. From the government not using your favorite color, to the democrats using a Donkey for a symbol. Just list them please for me. All this junk is getting rediculous.


    If the Establishment Clause said: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of donkeys, we'd be arguing that donkey symbols are unconstitutional. (Incidentally, the Democrats are a private political organisation, so they are not convered by "Congress shall make no law", unless they receive state funding.)

    a non-practicing Christian which means I'm not reaching my conclusions based on Religion, but I've reached my conclusions on the fact that there is a small group of "so called" Americans who want to change ever little thing which isn't Politically Correct.


    A moment ago you made reference to hell. That is a religious view. Regarding these "so-called" Americans, they are using their legal rights to maintain constitutional liberties. What could be more patriotic than that? Your classification of them as "so-called" Americans is offensive and unnecessary.
  12. Master_Jedi_David Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 2
    First of all, I believe in God and have no problem With "...under God" in the pledge or references to it on money etc. However, it does violate the Constitution.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

    -- The First Amendment

    In schools, being required or pressurerd into saying the pledge is wrong and compromises the First Amendment. Thus, it is the right decision to remove anything with religious meaning from schools.


    This is the same with "In God We trust"
    If it is in the school, take it down. Simple as that.
  13. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    I have a question.

    How many of you had really paid attention to that phrase before it was brought to your attention?

    I bet you my $3.28 cents in my wallet that 99.9% of you had never really paid any attention to.
  14. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    Which is how issues like this go unchallenged for many years.

    And is just fine and dandy with those who believe in God.

    If it was all of a sudden taken out, I wonder who would be screaming and shouting about that, even though 99.9% of those people probably don't pay attention to it either.


    Latre! :D
  15. DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2001
    star 4
    "How many of you had really paid attention to that phrase before it was brought to your attention?"

    EXACTLY!!!! Thank you. Most people don't even know who is on the 10 or 50 dollar bill. Or one of the big trivia questions I ask at work all the time that nobody can ever get and it's down right sad is which individuals on our currency and never was president. All people know about money is the color and the value, and that is the bottom and line to bring this issue of taking out "In God we Trust" is down right lame and it's nick picking and I don't like nick picking small things.

    Oh and so what if I said Hell. That doesn't mean anything. Once again nick picking. When I told you that religion is not a deciding factor for me in this debate or the POA debate I mean it.

    Here I will give you another version of the way I think this country is going. It's going down the toliet. There no religion in that one. Happy?
  16. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    So, since nobody pays attention to it, we can just get rid of it?

    Great! Let's do it. :)


    Latre! :D

    Hey, sometimes I pray to the porcelain god, so try another version. :p
  17. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Well, I agree with DarkPigFeet on one regard:

    When did the country become the United States of Whiners?

    I've tried to follow the other Pledge case, and I don't see how the guy (or his daughter) has suffered any injury from the phrase. He is just trying to get his 15mins of fame.

    I'm also pretty non-religious, but I don't take offense to people that are. I also don't see how "In God we trust" is the establishment of religion. You can follow the concept of a God without subscribing to one single religion.

    The constitution doesn't say anyhting about preventing the mere mention of God, it prohibits the establishment of a national religion.

    Fine, don't legally force people to mention "under God," just don't prevent those who want to from saying it.

    Isn't that called "getting along?"

    ps. pray to the porcelain god-heh heh
  18. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    I really hate the way the founding fathers wrote the establishment clause. I honestly think they could not have been any more confusing. They prolly didn't know what it meant. Why didn't they just use the wording they had before? Whatever.

    This debate is rather pointless, but why must we remove every mention of God in government?

    Also, the guy who brought the lawsuit up about the POA also has some very other crazy ideas. I posted it a few days back, and he wanted to change "him" and "her" to an all inclusive "re." What a moron.
  19. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    "why must we remove every mention of God in government?"


    Because the government is for everybody, and not everybody believes in a god/creator.

    It should be kept neutral. That's all I am trying to say.


    Latre! :D
  20. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    But I don't think that the government is for everybody, but for the majority.

    Our country was formed on the principal of religious freedom, not religious absence...
  21. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    If it was taken out, nobody's right to practice religion would be taken away.

    They can still do this at church, home, with friends and family.

    But the institution of government should be totally neutral in all aspects of religion.


    Latre! :D
  22. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    It does not need to be totally neutral. In one of the many other threads on this basic difference there is plenty of facts why this should not be the case.

    I have just one question, who is this hurting? Does it burn your athiest eyes to see the word God? Just leave it as it is. Why change? Why do I ask this question when I already know your answer? I dunno.

    I just don't see that it hurts anybody. This anti-religion stance is rather scarry, and it is anti-religon.

    Like I said before, the establishment clause sucks, why couldn't they have said "There shall be no offical or state sponsored religion."

    Instead of having religion dominating, the government serves as a tool to tear down religion.
  23. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    You can follow the concept of a God without subscribing to one single religion.

    Bingo. Religion and God are not mutually inclusive.
  24. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    MY EYES! MY EYES!


    :p


    Latre! :D

    Edit: And my anti-religion is only for religion in government, not in a person's social circle.
  25. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    This debate is rather pointless, but why must we remove every mention of God in government?


    Because the communists are taking over from within!!

    But the institution of government should be totally neutral in all aspects of religion.


    You do realize that is completely impossible?
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