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PT In light of the "Plagueis" novel, how would you rewrite the prequels? *SPOILERS*

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by ANAKINSKYWEEZER, Mar 15, 2012.

  1. princethomas

    princethomas Jedi Master star 2

    Nov 19, 2001
    I get it. I think the novel did such a good job of weaving things into the open spaces of the film that its not necessary. I really enjoyed the Hego Damask character and so Yes, I do kind of wish I could see him on the big screen. But its unnecessary.

    I guess Im one of the few people that thought the Syfo-Dyas thing was handled just fine. I thought we got what we needed to know. It seemed clear by the end of Clones that it was PROBABLY Dooku that ordered the clones, pretending to be the recently killed Syfo-Dyas, but that it was definitely devised by Sideous. Any other questions is just fun and intrigue, but not particularly necessary for the plot.

    Now in Darth Plagueis we find out that it was not Dooku, but in fact Jedi Master Syfo-Dyas working in secret for something he thought was good. Having been tricked into doing it by Plagueis and Sideous. Again though. This is still essentially what we got from Clones.
  2. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Though it was always undermined by the possibility of the "Palpatine's lying" defense, Luceno had already revealed Sifo-Dyas' involvement in a previous book from 2005.
  3. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 30, 2001
    In Labyrinth of Evil, Luceno wrote that the Kaminoans never saw Dyas, but a record of initial contact existed. It was a curious thing to write if trying to confirm that Dyas did in fact order the clone army.

    Later in the book, there is a conversation between Sidious and Dooku that is reflected upon. In it, Sidious tells Dooku that Dyas ordered a clone army. He said the order could stand, but Dyas needed to die. The paragraph afterwards made it clear that by killing Dyas, Dooku had fully embraced the dark side. So knowing that Sidious is a liar who manipulates people to get what he wants, it made one wonder if he was telling Dooku the truth regarding Dyas ordering the clones or if he just wanted Dooku to prove himself to the Sith by killing a Jedi. There was also a debate over whether Sidious was behind Dyas ordering the clones, or if he was hijacking some innocent project a bit late.

    The Darth Plagueis novel suggests the idea for the clone army came from Sidious who in turn planted it in the brain of Plagueis to get Dyas to order the army. However, it does not say whether Dyas went through with the order. In fact, Luceno specifically writes something curious.

    Plagueis: "Even if he decides against it, there may be a way to place the order in his name. But the force tells me that he will do it."

    So even there, Luceno doesn't fully say for a fact that Dyas did the deed. He writes around it yet again. Providing an opening for Sidious to have personally ordered the clones. This would fit with the Labyrinth of Evil opening Luceno made by noting the Kaminoans never saw Dyas and that only a vaguely described record existed. Plus at that point in the novel, its hard to say Plagueis was reading the force correctly. Though ultimately, it was apparently a plot by Sidious to order the clone army. The films essentially tells us as much too.
  4. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Sidious is labeled a liar by virtue of his status as the villain. However, he rarely, if ever, lies to Anakin. Because of the concept that Jedi can sometimes sense deception, I tend to think that lying to a Jedi is somewhat different from lying to Muggles like the Senate.

    Palpatine may have wanted Dooku to prove himself by killing a Jedi, and Sifo-Dyas may have ordered the clones. These things are not mutually exclusive. There doesn't seem to be any compelling reason for Sidious to lie to Dooku about Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones. The reason given for killing him was that Sidious didn't want the rest of the Jedi to find out about the army too soon. This seems at least as likely to be the truth as the alternative.
  5. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Mar 26, 2001
    I'm not sure I would completely rewrite the prequels so much as just enhance them here and there with sprinklings of some things.
  6. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 30, 2001
    Sidious is labeled a liar because he lies. When he stood before the galaxy (including Yoda and Mace) and said "I love democracy. I love the Republic," he was lying. Same when he said to Padme (in front of a bunch of Jedi) "the thought of losing you, is unbearable." Or when he tells Anakin "it's upsetting to me that the Council doesn't seem to fully appreciate your talents." That's all lying by commission. He doesn't have much of a problem doing it to Jedi or force sensitive beings. He also lies by omission quite a bit when he leaves out crucial information that would help individuals determine the truth of a situation to help further his goals.

    If Sidious doesn't want Dooku to know how deep his involvement with the clone army is, and Dyas didn't end up ordering the clones, thus making Sidious frame him, then that's compelling enough of a reason to lie to Dooku if he just wants Dooku to kill the guy he just framed and prove himself as a Sith Lord. We know that the clone army order leads back to Sidious's plan. We just don't know in the EU if Dyas actually got around to taking part in that plan. A suspicious line suggesting the Kaminoans never saw Dyas and Plagueis saying there's a way to frame Dyas leave that door wide open in the books. Maybe the manipulation didn't fully take on Dyas and to clean up loose ends, Sidious has Dooku kill him.

    Either way though, this is all 10 years post AOTC premiering and as far as the casual audience is concerned, it was Sidious. All roads lead to Sidious pulling the strings on this clone army.

    More on topic, I wouldn't add much from the Darth Plagueis novel into the prequels.
  7. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

    May 16, 2010
    I really don't think the whims of a EU novel should majorly influence the main saga, no matter how good it is.
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    In Star Wars and Philosophy- the "From a Certain Point of View" essay (about how the Jedi lie a lot and the Sith tell the truth a lot if it serves them) it discusses that even those statements about loving democracy are true- he loves it because it helped get him into his position of power.
  9. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Everyone lies by omission quite a bit, all the time. That's why it's a weak charge. Accusing Palpatine of lies of omission is really just tantamount to saying Palpatine is the villain.

    There's a problem with this. Sidious likely does want Dooku to know how deep his involvement with the clone army is. As we see from the films Dooku is in on the plan. At the point in question, you suggest he's being asked to prove himself as a Sith Lord. If he's being asked to prove himself as a Sith Lord, he's already joined forces with Sidious and become essentially the second Sith in all but name. He's told outright that the plan is to make use of the clone army in the future and to keep its existence hidden from the Jedi in the meantime. What does Sidious really have to gain by hiding his own involvement?

    To clean up loose ends, Sidious has Dooku kill him either way. And the reason for the statement that the Kaminoans never saw Sifo-Dyas might not be quite as suspicious as you think. In AOTC it almost seems as though the Kaminoans think Obi-Wan is Sifo-Dyas at first. After all these years... we were beginning to think you weren't coming. If Luceno interpreted the scene in the same way, it makes sense that he addressed it in the text.
  10. obi-rob-kenobi4

    obi-rob-kenobi4 Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 17, 2007
    I wouldn't change a thing. The films themselves are more important than any book or piece of EU material. Its the book that complements the films, not the other way around.
    BoromirsFan and Alexrd like this.
  11. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 30, 2001
    While interesting, does he still love votes of no-confidence 10 years after it gave him what he wanted? Votes of no-confidence are still part of their democratic process. I doubt he loves democracy any more than he loves the Trade Federation for being greedy or the Rebellion for being present. They're just tools to get what he wants and that's revenge and absolute power. If he had to divide a pie up with the things he loves, I doubt democracy would get little more than a crumb. Certainly not proportional to the way he conveys his love for democracy to the Senate. A bit of pandering at the very least to exploit them and further his evil bid for power.
  12. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 30, 2001

    Yes but his goals are sinister, evil, and wicked.

    Not all villains are liars. A mad butcher who cuts up babies doesn't necessarily mean he's a liar. A villain is typically defined as a wicked or evil person who is the source of trouble.

    You implied that people are saying Sidious is a liar because he's the villain and that he rarely if ever lies to Jedi. Yet I listed several instances where he has lied by commission to Jedi and I threw in that he lies by omission to the Jedi but didn't go into that list because he practically does that to further his own wicked agenda a lot more. He is a liar with cruel intentions. He is fully capable of lying by commission or omission to Dooku.

    The conversation in LoE reads...

    "One of your former confidants at the Jedi Temple has perceived the coming change. This one has contacted a group of cloners, regarding the creation of an army for the Republic. The Order for the army can stand, for we will be able to make use of that army someday. But Master Sifo-Dyas cannot stand, for the Jedi cannot learn about the army until we are prepared to have them learn of it." - Sidious

    That certainly doesn't read like a man being forthcoming about his level of involvement. I can only suspect Luceno wrote it like that because at that time, Sidious did not think Dooku needed to know his level of involvement. Why? Maybe he wasn't confident that Dooku was fully committed to the dark side at the time? Or maybe he just didn't want questions being asked regarding how Sidious convinced Dyas to create the army. If answered honestly, it would bring up Darth Plagueis. Not sure if that was a topic Sidious wanted his interim apprentice to dwell upon much. Sidious might also enjoy some level of perceived innocence regarding certain events. Not so much for what he plans to do, but what he has already done to bring events to where he wanted them to be. And I say "some" level of perceived innocence because ultimately he is still a Sith Lord and I don't believe Dooku is that foolish. Though as proven in the films, the less Dooku knows about the Dark Lords plans within plans, the better for the Dark Lord. Flexibility is a plus for the dark side.

    The sentence before that sample above states "but he[Sidious] needed to gauge the depth of Dooku's commitment."

    The paragraph after their conversation in LoE says "and so with the murder of Sifo-Dyas, Dooku had embraced the dark side fully, and Sidious conferred on him the title of Darth Tyranus." Sidious may have wanted him to kill Dyas for a couple of reasons, but at the very least, it was to prove himself. Show his loyalty to the dark side. Turn against the Jedi.

    If Sidious framed Dyas for creating the army, then yes he would want Dooku or one of his minions to kill him to tie up loose ends. If Sidious framed Dyas for creating the army, but first planted the seed for Dyas to create the army and it didn't take, then yes he would want Dooku or one of his minions to kill him. Before the Darth Plagueis novel, there was nothing to say that the idea had even truly been planted in the mind of Dyas. But now Luceno has written out conversations where Plagueis (under manipulation of Sidious) brings the idea to Dyas. He just keeps leaving the door open for Dyas to be framed.

    Oh, and if Taun We thought Obi-Wan was Master Dyas, then why did she hesitate to say his name when introducing him to Lama Su? She just recognized him as a Jedi based on his looks. Much like TC-14 did in TPM. The army was for the Republic and made by the Jedi Order or so the Kaminoans thought. There are a thousand different officials who could have checked up on the clones and she was just excited to finally see one. She also didn't act very surprised when he said his name was Obi-Wan Kenobi.
  13. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Hence the phrase "Sidious has Dooku kill him either way" in my post.

    So, no contradiction there; that covers rarely, if we discard the "lies of omission" which everyone inevitably commits just by existing and being in proximity to others.

    Because she wasn't sure? Thinking is not the same as knowing. In fact, the part you mention was what first made me think that the Kaminoans not seeing Sifo-Dyas was implied by the film, but there's also her greeting of Obi-Wan as if he specifically is the one they've been waiting for for years.

    Or perhaps Luceno's idea of Sidious' level of involvement changed between LOE and DP.

    How is that proven in the films? And this kind of thing works both ways; it should equally apply to the situation where Sifo-Dyas orders the army due to Plagueis' suggestion.

    Though not established outright in LOE, it is entirely possible that Yoda has more reason to assume Sifo's involvement than he lets on. He states - fairly definitively - that a record exists of Sifo's initial contact. If it's so easy to fake such a record, Yoda is hopefully intelligent enough to know this, so if indeed the possibility of a fake is in play here, one would think Yoda's appraisal of the situation would still express the ambiguity apparent during AOTC. But it doesn't, and there may be specific reasons for this, technical or otherwise; we should also remember that, as revealed in ROTS, the Jedi Temple has a holographic surveillance system.
  14. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Sep 16, 2005
    I haven't been following all this, but couldn't they have meant expecting Obi-Wan as "a representative of the Order"?
  15. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 30, 2001
    I was agreeing. Hence why I said "then yes." Before the Plagueis book, his reasoning for having Dooku kill Dyas would have been to kill the patsy he just framed and more importantly to test Dooku's loyalty (as described in LoE). Now, instead of just being a patsy, Dyas might have known too much for comfort even if he didn't go through with it. Perhaps that was on purpose.

    To me, George Lucas has conveyed the message that Sidious is a liar. He lies by commission and omission plenty of times on screen. I listed three times where he lied by commission in his scenes as examples, but here are some more. Sidious claims to be too weak during battle when he isn't in order to convince the guy next to him to attack. He pleads with Queen Amidala to stay on Coruscant or in his apartment where he says it is "safe." Given that he is trying to kill her, it indeed was not safe for her. Nor did he really want her to stay at that point anyway. He also told her it was a "surprise" to be nominated for Chancellor when it truly was not. He lies by commission enough to Jedi and politicians to where I do not believe he'd have much trouble lying by commission to Dooku.

    Also I'm not sure how much lying by omission I do in a given day, but I am pretty sure it is not every second I go into work, go home, or take a breath. Nor if I did, I don't think his lies of omission equate to that of the normal man given who he is, what he has done, and what he plans to do. I may steal a cookie from the cookie jar and not confess to it when I'm not asked, but that's not on the level of starting galactic wars and ordering millions of deaths for his villainous plans. He is a constant facade when he goes into work to hide those truths from those that would punish him for them. He is constantly lying by omission to get away with his sinister and evil plots that are ever going.

    So you're saying I shouldn't be suspicious of what Luceno wrote in regards to the Kaminoans never actually seeing Dyas because he was forced into writing it that way, but instead be more suspicious of what Lucas wrote and presented on film? Because here I am thinking what Luceno wrote was supicious because I figured the Kaminoans didn't necessarily confirm nor deny that they hadn't seen Dyas. But you're saying they had no idea what the guy looks like and thus while she just says Master Jedi and hesitates to introduce him, she thinks it's Dyas.

    I'm not sure that helps the theory that Dyas ordered the clones.

    But at the very least Sidious is lying by omission to Dooku in that conversation. He isn't telling Dooku the entire truth given what he did in the DP book. I think we can both agree to that now when it comes to the EU.

    What do you mean? I am pretty sure if Sidious had told Dooku of his plans to replace him, Dooku would have done a few things differently. Thus the less he knows about the Dark Lords plans within plans, the better for Sidious aka the Dark Lord. Dooku is just a pawn on a need to know basis.

    It does apply to Plagueis being conned into manipulating Dyas on behalf of Sidious. Plagueis didn't need to know it was Sidious feeding him these ideas without realizing it before Sidious was prepared to tell him. Dyas can be a patsy whether he orders the clones at the will of Sidious or doesn't end up doing it. Giving him those thoughts might make it easier to convince someone to murder him if you're just going to frame him.

    You'd also think Yoda and Obi-Wan, while brainstorming in LoE could at least toy with the idea that Dooku is Tyranus. In their LoE conversation, they talk about Dooku erasing Kamino from the archives, killing Dyas, being the apprentice of the Dark Lord of the Sith while also discussing Dyas, Tyranus, Jango etc. They know that Dooku told them that Sidious was now controlling the Senate. Even if they don't initially believe it, they know that statement has been placed into evidence. They know that when Jango escaped, he flew directly to Count Dooku when there were a billion other places in the galaxy to go to. But Tyranus, who could THAT guy be? You'd hope they'd be intelligent enough to map certain things out with an hour, a cup of coffee, and some index cards. But that didn't happen.

    My confidence in the intelligence of Yoda is a bit shaken when it comes to investigations. Maybe he is the type of guy to just accept a computer log or email (do they have those?) that says "clone army 24475 ordered by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas." Plagueis seemed confident enough that there was the possibility of framing Dyas. You'd have to assume that would involve fooling the Jedi and thus Yoda.

    As far as the movies go and the casual audience was concerned, Dyas was killed before the order was placed. Maybe some also walked away saying "yeah, those Kaminoans sure had no idea what the guy looked like either. The guy was a total patsy."

    Ten years later in the EU, we're at the authors refusing to close the door on Sidious framing this guy. Though honestly, it wouldn't shock me at all if in 5 to 10 years someone writes a novel that maps out the quest of Dyas because they've exhausted every avenue when it comes to expanding the films. Gotta make money somehow.
  16. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Before the Plagueis book, it was already possible that Sifo-Dyas knew too much, including the possibility that he actually placed the order.

    It's really nothing more than gut feeling based on the way Luceno's books in this era are usually structured. It's more of an answer to the question of why it was said the Kaminoans didn't see Sifo than something intended to help the theory that Sifo ordered the clones.

    But then that reasoning only applies to the hypothetical case where Sidious tells Dooku of his plans to replace him, a scenario which did not happen. In the case where that does not happen, it does not necessarily follow that the less Dooku knows ( about topics not involving his replacement ) the better.

    And maybe not. If they're looking at the possibility of an impostor - which AOTC seems to imply is at least on the table - such a thing by itself wouldn't seem to be enough to confirm Sifo's involvement. I think it is at least possible that Yoda may have partly relied on the Force in some way, or may have other reasons for his apparent certainty.

    This is an example of the error of hindsight - or to put it another way, thinking that what is obvious to the audience should also be obvious to the protagonists. They're not displaying a lack of intelligence here. You're expecting them to come to a completely counterintuitive result - that Dooku planned the creation of an army "for the Republic" which would be destined to oppose his own forces. As is said in LOE, Yoda believes Tyranus to have been someone on the side of the Republic. There is no reason for the Jedi to assume that the war is a sham or equivalently that both sides are being controlled by the same entity. At this point they do not know that Palpatine is a Sith. Without that crucial knowledge and its corollaries the assumption that Tyranus could be Dooku would not make sense. As far as they know Palpatine and Dooku are on opposite sides of the conflict. No amount of coffee and index cards is going to get them to adopt a counterintuitive conclusion which was spoonfed to the audience.
    DarthBoba likes this.
  17. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 30, 2001
    Possible but not the takeaway message the movies conveyed.

    That's cool.

    So are you saying that had Sidious told Tyranus the truth about his plans for Anakin to kill and replace him, Tyranus would have gone along with it? Or are you saying we can't know for sure?

    I also said that Dooku was on a need to know basis (as referenced with the Anakin truth). When Sidious and Dooku have that conversation in LoE, Dooku has yet to fully give himself to the dark side. He is not Darth Tyranus yet. So when telling Dooku to kill Sifo-Dyas, Sidious does not tell him everything about the clone army or how it originated when he's not confident yet in Dookus level of commitment. Like in ROTS, when Sidious is all "I have the power to save the one you love" and then after Anakin helps kill Mace and goes too far, Sidious is then all like "yeaah, about that thing I said I had the power to do, well its a work in progress."

    So to Dooku he'd be like "Gooood Dooku good. You're fulfilling your destiny. Yeah....about that clone army thing..."

    Sidious holds back on key pieces of information at the turning points to get people to fulfill his wishes.

    Didn't half the Jedi Council fly off to arrest the Chancellor just based off of Anakin (the guy Mace doesn't trust) saying "He's a Sith Lord. He knows the ways of the force and he has been trained to use the dark side?" Not only was that evidence and testimony weak, but the Jedi fly off into a trap because of it Not to mention Anakin just repeated back to Mace what he says earlier with "the dark side of the force surrounds the chancellor." It's eye rolling stuff. The ROTS novel seems to indicate that Yoda was fine with this gripping evidence as well.

    Did the Jedi not entertain the idea that a Darth Sidious was controlling the Senate? You do not investigate the Senate if you're not entertaining that theory at the very least. They don't know, but they're thinking about it. While they're investigating the Senate, they believe Count Dooku has joined the dark side. So they're investigating a Dark Lord of the Sith possibly controlling the Senate which in turns controls this new mysterious clone army, while also believing that a guy who has joined the dark side now leads the separatists and controls a droid army. Now if you're entertaining the idea that a Sith Lord might control the Senate, would you not also be taking into consideration while you're investigating, the other words that Dooku spoke since he lead you to entertain that theory? He mentioned something about Darth Sidious being in league with Nute Gunray 10 years ago. Well what happened 10 years ago involving Gunray? Oh that's right, that one Sith Lord popped up and tried to kill Queen Amidala during the invasion of Naboo. He's dead, but the Jedi long since believed that there was another Sith Lord out there. Is it this Darth Sidious who now could control the Senate? Well who officially controls the Senate now? There's the Supreme Chancellor. He got elected 10 years ago during the Naboo conflict. Come to think of it, he was the Senator from Naboo and a large sympathy vote helped elect him. Is Dooku saying that Supreme Chancellor Palpatine is this Darth Sidious? A dark theory, but while we're investigating Dooku's claim, might as well have a look.

    That's pretty good start on a conspiracy theory. That is all stuff that the Jedi can bridge to while brainstorming. In LoE, Obi-Wan and Yoda brainstorm. So why, if the Senate is worth investigating over the possibility of Sith activity, can they not theorize, knowing that Dooku has joined the dark side, that the Sith could be controlling two fronts of the war?

    Then you add in Jango Fett. Jango hired Zam Wesell to kill the leader of the opposition for a Republic army. Obi-Wan tracks Jango to Kamino where he discovers an army being grown for the Republic that was ordered, what a surprise, 10 years ago. The guy who supposedly ordered the army was a Jedi and has been dead for, 10 years. But there's a guy named Tyranus (as in Tyranny) who apparently hired Jango to be the clone template? Where is this Tyranus? Did he send Jango after Padme for opposing this army? Obi-Wan follows Jango to Geonosis where amazingly, a second army is discovered. This time it's droids. Not only this, but Dooku hired Jango Fett to kill Senator Amidala for Nute Gunray? I know Jango Fett is a bounty hunter and all, but how in the world did Dooku and Fett hook up? There are a million bounty hunters in the galaxy, and Dooku picks the guy who just happens to be the template for a clone army that would oppose his droid army? Something stinks on Dagobah.

    It's just brainstorming. In LoE, Yoda and Obi-Wan love to talk about what they know and their "theories" surrounding them. I know you keep saying that they can't fathom the idea of the Sith controlling both sides of the war, but they should be smarter than that given what they can connect. They have Jango already working for both sides. So why not the Sith? The Jedi already completely misjudged what Count Dooku was capable of when saying he couldn't assassinate anyone. Are they just that stupid to where they'd do it again so soon?

    Then, in LoE, they get a holographic image of a man wearing a hood with Nute Gunray calling him Lord Sidious. They can also tell he's human or humanoid. This is what they call new evidence or a new lead during an investigation. It mean's Dooku was not lying when he said someone existed called Darth Sidious. He also appeared to have a connection with Nute Gunray. That alone should get them thinking about Dooku's other claims again. Everything I connected above can once again be theorized during Yoda and Obi-Wans conversation in LoE.

    It's funny, in that LoE convo, Obi-Wan asks if Tyranus can be an alias of Dyas but Yoda says no because Dyas was killed before Jango arrived on Kamino. Then goes on about how Dooku killed Dyas and erased Kamino from the Jedi Archives. Here they were, thinking about Tyranus being an alias for someone, and they just drop it. They're only discussing 5 central names in their conversation. Those being Darth Sidious, Sifo-Dyas, Jango Fett, Count Dooku, and Tyranus. I assume they think Darth Sidious is a Sith alias and not the name he was born with. Sidious deriving from insidious. Tyranus sounds like it derives from something like Tyranny. Do they think it could be a Sith name? Do they think Count Dooku has a Sith name?

    Tyranus = Sifo-Dyas = No. Because Dyas was killed before Tyranus hired Jango.
    Tyranus = Jango Fett = No. Because Jango Fett did not hire himself.
    Tyranus = Tyranus = Sure if it's not an alias. But again, it's a dark name derived from Tyranny. Suspicious
    Tyranus = Darth Sidious = Probably not given he already has an alias, but maybe his birth name was Tyranus.
    Tyranus = Count Dooku = Well...Dooku did erase Kamino from the Jedi Archives. We don't know his Sith name. He did hire Jango Fett and that was a one in a million kind of thing. But nope. We can't consider this while brainstorming because we can't fathom the idea of a Sith plot controlling both sides even though we entertained the idea of a Sith Lord being in the Senate while Dooku ran the separatists.

    They SHOULD be able to get to the point where they can speculate that Palpatine is Sidious, Tyranus is Dooku, they have orchestrated a galactic war and the Jedi are dying in the middle.
  18. Jeanine Berry

    Jeanine Berry Jedi Youngling

    Sep 6, 2012
    Holy cow... [face_hypnotized]

    Anyway. I can't wait to read this book, I'm still trying to find it. Stupid Barnes and Noble Minnetonka.
  19. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Some might say the takeaway message of the film was ambiguity: "Do not assume anything."

    What Anakin tells him is consistent with what he had already sensed himself - but they are not the same thing. Thus it is a reasonable conclusion, not anything worthy of eye-rolling. What are they supposed to do, sit back going "yeah right"? We should give their command of the Force some due in this; that and there being no good reason for Anakin's certainty on this issue to be unfounded. For if Palpatine were not a Sith, what reason would he have to pose as one? And Anakin reporting on the Chancellpr goes a long way toward gaining Mace's trust, as the film points out. It is possible that Yoda's conclusion regarding Sifo-Dyas involved the Force on some level; after all, Plagueis sensed through the Force that Sifo would place the order.

    You could say the theory of "Darth Sidious controlling the Senate" implicitly means that the control is not through being the Supreme Chancellor. Again, it's an extremely counterintuitive conclusion based on hindsight. The Jedi investigated the Senate and found nothing of any substance; thus, as indicated by AOTC, they are inclined to view Dooku's revelation as deceit, creating mistrust - and as it turns out they are essentially right in that belief, true though the revelation may be, because after all Dooku is doing this at Sidious' urging. I don't think Sidious is being sketched as a character who would so willingly expose himself at that point in the story, if indeed the Palpatine = Sidious conclusion is as likely as you seem to suggest.

    I'd like to think in this case the Jedi were being a little open-minded; it's a very big galaxy, and it seems unfair to assume someone is up to no good just because they have a name like "Tyranus", which might mean something different ( in some alien or offworld tongue ) from what it appears to mean in Basic.

    Actually, Dooku was present at the battle of Galidraan in which Fett was the only Mandalorian survivor.

    Working for both sides is different ( and a different order of magnitude ) from controlling both sides. Mercenaries often work both sides of a conflict; in the real world there is a long and storied history of this.

    This is a somewhat false comparison. At the point in question there has not yet been any allegation against the Chancellor, and their opinion about Dooku reflected his status as an ex-Jedi, which does not apply to the Chancellor. Also, as protectors of the Republic, it doesn't seem stupid for them to hesitate to assume the worst about the head of the Republic government; in other words they want to believe in the Republic.

    Because they were still thinking Tyranus was an alias for someone on the side of the Republic, like Sifo. That doesn't translate to also looking for Tyranus identities on what is presumed to be the other side.

    Controlling the Senate, not in the Senate. These are not necessarily the same thing, and the Jedi were looking at the Senate to some extent.
  20. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 25, 2008

    I would change the plot of "Plagueis" novel to reflect his death BEFORE the events of TPM.
  21. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 30, 2001
    Doubt in Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones? Sure. But there is no ambiguity for the audience when it comes to Sidious and Dooku being the real villains behind the plot. From the Jedi perspective, they can theorize with the information they have. Just like Obi-Wan and Yoda theorize a bit in LoE while brainstorming.

    I'm not sure I should be giving their command of the force some due given that they keep saying stuff like "our ability to use the force has diminished" and "blind we are."

    Plagueis also said if Dyas doesn't order the clones, there might be a way to frame him. The ability of Plagueis to interpret future events using the force was in serious question by that point anyway given the unfortunate things that happened to him in the later years.

    Anakin tells Mace that his reasoning for saying Palpatine is a Sith Lord is because he knows the ways of the force and has been trained to use the dark side. The next question out of Mace's mouth should have been "what did he do?" or "what did he say that brought you to that conclusion?" Or maybe without proper specifics, he should have just said "Do not assume anything." Because at that point he had just heard something very vague from a guy who he was having trust issues with.

    The Jedi investigated the Senate based on a theory that suggested the conclusion would be that Darth Sidious controls the republic via his influence over the Senate! The theory according to you was counterintuitive and yet there they went investigating it.

    The Supreme Chancellor is probably the most famous politician in the galaxy. The Jedi may not know the biography of Senator Edcel Bar Gane, but they know something about Palpatine's history. Much like they probably knew something about Valorums and so on. But in this specific case, the theory does say this Dark Lord has influence and controls the Republic via his influence over hundreds of Senators. The office of Supreme Chancellor is a good place to start looking given the position he has. More importantly, this current Chancellor was elected 10 years ago from Naboo. Naboo was where the Jedi encountered Darth Maul during the invasion by the Trade Federation. Maul was killed, but the Jedi suspected there was another Sith Lord out there. So why were the Sith so interested in the Trade Federation invading Naboo? What did they have to gain? Oh that's right, Senator Palpatine got elected via a large sympathy vote. Is Dooku saying that Palpatine is the Dark Lord of the Sith?

    See, for the most part, I agree with you that the character of Darth Sidious does not come across as someone who would expose himself so easily knowing what the Jedi can piece together and theorize. It's the writing that becomes the problem. In the rewrites and editing and everything else going on, Lucas did not realize that he has given the Jedi too much to work with too soon.

    Ha. Jango might as well have said he was hired by Doctor Doom or Professor Evil. The name Tyranus just doesn't cut the mustard on conjuring up good things.

    Again though, we're still stuck with the fact that the guy creating a droid army hired the same guy that a guy creating a clone army hired. Which brings us to the next part....

    An excerpt from the AOTC novel.

    "If this Jango Fett was involved in trying to kill the Senator, and just happened to be chosen as the source for a clone army, created for the Republic....." Mace Windu stopped and shook his head. The coincidence was too great for those two items to be simple chance. But how could one tie in with the other? Was it possible that whoever decided to create the clone army was afraid that Senator Amidala would be a strong enough voice to prevent that army being used?"

    Mace isn't one for coincidences and that happened before Jango even flew to Geonosis to where yet another army was being created.

    Didn't Obi-Wan say that politicians are not to be trusted? Didn't Yoda say their adversaries would multiply if the Senate was informed that their ability to use the force had diminished? They may believe in the idea of the Republic, but they do not trust its leaders that much.

    Needless to say, the Jedi also wouldn't have expected the clone template to flee to the side of the leader of the opposition. As I mentioned much earlier, coincidence is a bit of a reach.

    Also, when they were searching for who erased Kamino from the Jedi Archives, were they expecting to find the leader of the opposition army to have done that deed? Wouldn't they have presumed it to have been someone on the side of the Republic? Precedent has been shattered.

    Controlling the Senate means the possibility of being in the Senate though. Thus they entertained the theory that a Sith Lord could be in the Senate while investigating.
  22. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 30, 2001

    Agreed. It felt like a twist for the sake of having a twist and not something at all that was intended back in the 1990s. It didn't add to the events of TPM.
  23. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    But you claimed Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones wasn't the takeaway message of the film. The Sith being the real villains ( pretty much a given in this franchise ) and Sifo ordering the clones are not mutually exclusive. Thus, the possibility of Sifo's involvement can be part of the takeaway message of the film.

    Diminished, not eliminated. As we can see during the trilogy they still retain command of the Force. They're still Jedi and that means their decision-making process can be informed by more than what is available to mere Muggles. least one of which, in a sense, he foresaw ( depending on interpretation of the text ). In fact, IIRC we see his ability in this area on display in several places by that point, despite the unfortunate things that happened to him. Are we really saying that we must generally disregard the Force-granted intuition of any character who experiences unfortunate outcomes?

    "He said he knows the ways of the Force and has been trained to use the dark side." What's Mace supposed to say at that point? "Can you prove it?" Palpatine's just confessed to being a darksider. As Mace says, swift action is required, not sitting around acting like the allegation has to be proved in a court of law before they can do anything. What is Anakin expected to have, an old videotape of Plagueis training Palpatine?

    There is nothing vague about "Palpatine is the Sith we've been looking for". And again, reporting on his mentor goes a long way toward gaining Mace's trust. The idea that Mace should disbelieve Anakin at this point based on preexisting trust issues doesn't really make sense.

    Palpatine = Sidious is counterintuitive. Sidious influencing the Senate is not the same theory.


    Nominative determinism only goes so far. It's like saying Cokie Roberts was destined to be a drug addict. Maybe Tyranus was a family name. Sure, the old man could have been a bastard, but does that mean the descendants have to follow suit?

    Yes, mercenaries have been known to work both sides of a conflict. It's nothing new.

    The implied connection in that case is about entities wanting the Republic to have an army. It doesn't easily translate to the counterintuitive result of those same entities wanting said army to be undermined by yet another army.

    Politicians are often known to be power-hungry and ambitious. Still, there's a difference between not trusting politicians and thinking they're Sith ( or equivalently that the war is a sham ). To use a real world example, there were many people who didn't trust George W. Bush, but presumably very few who thought he was the secret leader of Al-Qaeda.

    That doesn't make Dooku Tyranus. Jango is a mercenary and has undoubtedly worked for more than one individual in his life. He doesn't seem to be depicted as a character who would really care about the moral standing of who he was working for. A job is a job.

    No, and as we see in LOE they did not presume that. Why would someone on the side of the Republic not want the Republic to find out about its army until the droid army was already constructed and ready to oppose the Republic? It is still a logical conclusion for them to assume Tyranus was on the side of the Republic.
  24. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 30, 2001
    There is possibility that Dyas ordered the clones in AOTC. Lama Su introduces the possibility. But it's not the takeaway message. Obi-Wan puts serious doubt into whether he did order that army. Then ultimately the character is never seen nor mentioned again while other suspects (the real villains) are produced and linked to the sinister plot. The takeaway message to the audience becomes that Dyas was not the culprit.

    Can, but doesn't mean Yoda used the force in LoE to backup the vague record of initial contact. With that line of thinking, you'd want us to trust Mace Windu and Ki-Adi-Mundi in the Chancellors office when they say Dooku isn't a murderer nor capable of assassination because they have the force on their side to guide them on such a matter. While it wasn't said they used the force to conclude that (like in LoE with Yoda), we should give the force its due and trust them. Of course they were dead wrong.

    The Jedi are having trouble with the force guiding them in the prequels. So no, I'm not going to assume that the force guided Yoda into an informed decision in Labyrinth of Evil.

    Always in motion the future is. Which means that even if Plagueis saw something that indicated Dyas might order the clones, it doesn't mean it happened. Plus, he added the part about the possibility of framing Dyas. Whatever Plagueis saw in his own future at that time, was obviously not what went down. So yes, maybe in that particular time period I am skeptical of his ability to interpret future events accurately.

    Anakin didn't even tell Mace that Palpatine confessed to being a Sith Lord or a darksider. Knowing the ways of the force and being trained to use the dark side go without saying when describing a Sith Lord. Anakin might as well have said, I think he's a Sith Lord because he's a Sith Lord.

    "I think Chacellor Palpatine is the Sith we've been looking for." Mace asks "how do you know this?"

    Why didn't he just trust Anakin there? Instead he wants proof. But the proof he is offered is that Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord because he does Sithly things. One second Mace finds Anakin's testimony not enough and the next he accepts THAT as proof? I get why Anakin is incredibly vague, but Mace accepting it on top of his trust issues with Anakin....

    The theory is that Sidious controls the Republic via his influence over hundreds of Senators. The Jedi in turn decide to investigate the Senate. They might explore options of Sidious influencing the Senate from outside, but they also consider him influencing it from within. Since the Supreme Chancellor is the leader of the Senate, he is included in the investigation. Since everyone is a suspect, and the Supreme Chancellor has a name, Palpatine = Sidious is on the table.

    Well when you completely edit out the train of thought (which I recited) that would lead to the Jedi concluding "yes", then sure.

    Maybe. But that doesn't mean a name like that doesn't initially sound dangerous and disturbing. Especially to the audience.

    I don't think you fully appreciate the size of a galaxy nor the size / importance of Jango's role in both sides of this conflict. It's not the Empire employing a stormtrooper until one day he defects and becomes employed as a gunner on one rebel frigate.

    Is it not also counterintuitive for Dooku to leave the clone army alone for 10 years from the Jedi perspective...or just about from anyone's perspective? The disadvantage of the clone army is that it wouldn't be ready for around 10 years. That's a wide window for enemies of the project to thwart it. Instead Dooku hides the planet. What good does that do? Yoda says the Kaminoans eventually would have contacted them. So what harm is Dooku preventing by hiding the planet? Would he not want the planet to be discovered long before the clones are ready? A bunch of 9 year old clones aren't going to help the Republic.The Jedi surely would not keep such a project going in their name if it was discovered so early. Nor would the Senate be pleased at such a secretive project in the name of the Jedi. Plus, a secretive Republic project would scare the crap out of the outer rim planets and business entities that Dooku is hoping to unite against the Republic. He'd have what he wants faster while decimating the clone project and bogging it down in investigations.

    Then there's trying to kill Senator Amidala who opposes creating a Republic army. Gunray may want her dead out of revenge, but she is the last Senator you'd want to kill as she is helping to keep the Republic defenseless. It's hard to believe Dooku couldn't convince Nute Gunray that they should hold off on that part until after they've crushed the Republic under the might of the droid armies.

    Well Al-Qaeda hadn't been thought to be extinct for a millennium and then suddenly take part in an attack against Texas during which Governor Bush was elected President based on a large sympathy vote. Nor was Al-Qaeda just two people in which one was dead and one more was believed to exist. Not even sure what the Trade Federation or CIS would be in your comparison. Just doesn't really work as the circumstances are different.

    Mathematically, every politician cannot be a Sith. But the theory has been presented to them that one of those Senators could be one. The Sith are as skilled as the Jedi in the force and have a bad history with them. They have been enemies for over a thousand years. It is dangerous for the Jedi Order if the Sith have any sort of legitimate power.

    Just how many mercenaries do you believe exist in the Star Wars galaxy? What are the odds that just one of them would be at the heart of the secret clone army (by being the template) and being present the night Dooku secretly speaks to the CIS in uniting their droid forces?

    Sifo-Dyas can order the clone army in secret, but doesn't want it to remain secret before the clones are fully grown and ready? So if the Jedi Order and the Senate were going to be so accepting of the project (before being forced into using it), then why order it in secret at all? Or was there going to be some opposition to it in both the Senate and the Jedi Order?
  25. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    I think what you're saying is that the takeaway message to you was that Sifo-Dyas was not the culprit. However, you don't speak for the whole audience. The film's presentation contained no such certainty, and I think this ambiguity could be considered a takeaway message.

    But it's still possible. Whatever his reasons may be, Yoda seems convinced that Sifo placed the order, even though he should still be considering the possibility that Sifo's role in the initial contact was faked. Yoda's position has changed since AOTC, and I don't think it's being sketched as an arbitrary change.

    Except the part about a path winding deeper into darkness and absence. But the appearance of "whatever" in the above is significant. What specific visions of the future did Plagueis have that did not come true?

    Not quite. What's offered is the claim that Palpatine meets the two criteria generally needed to be considered a Sith: he's a darksider and was trained by another in the Sith teachings.

    You're apparently reading too much into Mace's question. He just wants to know the situation. As you pointed out yourself, the two claims are not so different; thus, to assume one is rejected and the other is accepted as "proof" doesn't really make sense. And again, what kind of proof is Mace expected to hold out for, exactly? A video recording of Palpatine using the dark side? A signed confession? You exaggerate the trust issues out of all proportion if you act as if Mace should place no value on Anakin's judgment whatsoever. Anakin is still a Jedi. These characters are still Jedi.

    You don't know that.

    As it turned out that train of thought both would not and did not lead to the Jedi concluding "yes".

    Then it's a good thing the audience opinion of the sound of the name isn't an issue here, especially given that the end of the film tells them outright that Tyranus is Dooku. Maybe Jedi operating in a Republic full of disparate planets, cultures and names need to be more open-minded.

    I think you're somehow in denial of the possibility that a mercenary could be working for two opposing sides, even while you use the phrase "role in both sides".

    What else is he supposed to do, exactly? What else can he do that wouldn't tip his side's hand or prematurely alert the Republic?

    Explained in LOE; the Jedi believe that by the time the Kaminoans eventually contacted them, the Separatist army would have grown too large to deal with.

    Well, we see that Gunray is adamant about getting his way in exchange for signing on with Dooku. That isn't Dooku's fault.

    Wait, you're telling me my analogy wasn't a one-to-one correspondence? Shocking!