PT In light of the "Plagueis" novel, how would you rewrite the prequels? *SPOILERS*

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by ANAKINSKYWEEZER, Mar 15, 2012.

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  1. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus/2014 Celebrity Deadpool Winner

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    Either Dyas ordered the clones or he didn't. So the audience analyzes the information provided and comes to one of the two conclusions knowing it can't be both. So what is the message Lucas ultimately conveyed? The act of ordering the clone army is very central to the plot and has an enormous impact on future events. Lucas gives the team of Sidious/Dooku the motive, means, and opportunity to have performed the act while supported by evidence (not necessarily the same evidence the Jedi get, but evidence). Dyas on the other hand is never given a motive on screen and the opportunity for him to have done it is snatched away just minutes after the character is verbally introduced into the story. Once that happens, he is never brought up again. So you weigh the two and the learned experience or takeaway message becomes the conclusion with the most weight behind it in the end.




    Well at least we agree that he should still be considering the possibility that Sifo's role in initial contact was faked.

    A record of initial contact has to exist either way but the fact that the Kaminoans never saw him leaves the door open quite a bit for fraud. Lama Su implies in the AOTC novel that they conversed with whoever ordered the clones and that the person explained a few things to them about preferring living beings to droids. Then again, Lama Su also says in that book that Dyas hand-picked Jango himself and then a scene or two later Jango says he's never heard of him and that he was recruited by a man called Tyranus.





    What I was saying there was that the dark side of the force was not on the side of Plagueis in the end. It wasn't helping him navigate around his death (in that his apprentice was playing him) or if it was, he wasn't interpreting what it was telling him very well. It didn't help him avoid his near death either. The dark side had chosen Sidious. Plagueis says there may be a way to place the order in the name of Dyas but also says the force tells him he will do it. Excluding "always in motion the future is" he then goes on to say a second later "we have become invincible." At the time, he just doesn't come across as someone seeing things clearly. But again, just because he sees it, doesn't mean it happened. Plus he's the guy to say Dyas can possibly be framed.




    And the proof that he met the criteria was not explained to Mace.




    "If what you told me is true, you will have gained my trust." As in he doesn't already have Mace's trust.

    He could have at least told Mace that Palpatine confessed or about Palpatine reading his worst nightmares. Some sort of proof that he met the criteria if it was just going to be Anakin's testimony.




    I'm giving the Jedi the benefit of the doubt that they wouldn't be that incompetent. Or are you saying I should say they'd be stupid enough to exclude the Supreme Chancellor from a Senate investigation? Or maybe the Vice Chairman? etc



    It should have though. To which you'll say "not it shouldn't have." etc etc




    He can be open minded, but that doesn't mean the name isn't something rather dark in basic. The audience doesn't need to know that Dooku = Tyranus for them to recognize a name sounding like tyrannous is disturbing. Same with the Jedi.




    If there are a million bounty hunters in the galaxy and you picked one and I picked one, what are the odds that we picked the same bounty hunter?





    Create a situation for the Jedi and Republic to search for Kamino? Hire someone expendable to get their attention and then hide your actions in a "maze of deception." Seems to be a common way of going about things for Sith.



    So Kamino needs to be erased from the Jedi Archives so that the Kaminoans do not eventually contact them? That's not making much sense. The Kaminoans know where to find the Republic.

    And again, the Jedi and Senate discovering the clones 4 years into the project isn't a benefit to the project.



    Federation types are cowards. Negotiations would be short. Especially when the Sith are involved......or Grievous.... or just about anything more physically and mentally powerful than Gunray.
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  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    No, it isn't. You seem to insist that your preferred outcome must be the only one possible, but the film gives no such certainty. The fact that Sifo-Dyas had the opportunity to do it is confirmed in the EU by LOE and DP, despite Luceno's failure to establish whether or not he actually did it.

    Maybe some people feel the need to act as if ambiguity is the same thing as certainty, but I don't think we can assume that the entire audience feels this way.

    A possibility which Yoda doesn't seem to believe in anymore by the time of LOE. There may be various reasons for this. Sifo-Dyas may have had some prior history, however limited, leading Yoda to believe he could have ordered the army. His concerns regarding the future may have been known to the Council. Or Yoda may have discovered a record of the initial contact on the Coruscant end.

    That just says he wasn't immortal. In a battle to the death between two Sith, one is going to lose. Does that mean we have to throw out any Force visions or Force-granted intuition on the part of the loser? As I was saying, there was no such Force-granted intuition felt by Plagueis in the text which did not come to pass, and this includes what seems to be a presentiment of his own death.

    But it arguably helped him avoid death in the "near death" situation, and it helped him recover from the attack while allowing him to perfect a cessation of his aging process. His strength in the dark side was on display in various ways during this period.

    Is Mace supposed to be wondering if Anakin saw the training of Palpatine? Clearly the implication is that either Palpatine confessed these things to Anakin, and Anakin possibly confirmed them to some extent by scrutinizing Palpatine with the Force, or Anakin actually witnessed Palpatine using the dark side. The part about Sith training would have to have been Palpatine's word. Either way Mace isn't in a position to demand further "proof".

    Again, you're exaggerating what this means. Mace has enough of a basic level of "trust", for lack of a better word, to assume that Anakin has a legitimate reason to come to this conclusion. And Anakin turning in his mentor is a big deal. It goes against his interests. That doesn't tend to imply Anakin is acting for self-serving reasons or engaging in deception. As such, though awaiting confirmation, it should engender some level of trust on its own.

    He kind of doesn't need to, since that arguably must be part of it, where the fact of Palpatine's training is concerned.

    You're assuming that not making Palpatine a suspect is somehow a reflection of incompetence. But this is largely a result of the skewed view created by hindsight, and it is more that they are simply not that paranoid. They believe in the Republic, and as such the idea of the Republic being held together by a Sith Chancellor - while another Sith attempts to break the Republic in two - is to them an unlikely and extremely counterintuitive notion. Or as Mace put it in the ROTS novel, the reason Palpatine isn't a suspect is because he's already in power.

    I really don't think the Jedi can afford to be as biased regarding how names sound; it's a big galaxy. Even a member of the audience, in his or her workplace for example, most likely wouldn't be able to discriminate against someone who had a last name suggestive of villainy or negative characteristics.

    I don't get it. How does any of this thwart the project, which wasn't something the Jedi were doing? It sounds like a bunch of vaguely articulated concepts of smoke and mirrors which ultimately just wastes time and does no more good than erasing Kamino from the archives. In fact, it wasn't hard for Kamino to be located once Obi-Wan had heard of it. Thus putting the Jedi on a "hunt for Kamino" early would be exactly the wrong thing to do, and there was really no more that Dooku could do against the project in the Jedi's perception.

    I agree. You're not making much sense. Why would the absence of Kamino in the archives prevent the Kaminoans from contacting the Republic?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 10, 2012
  3. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Yup- Ben's "I thought he died before that" is a bit tentative.

    After Dooku's mention of Sifo-Dyas's warning to him - along the lines of "if you want to stir up trouble- be warned that I'm one step ahead of you" I figured that was a huge hint that Sifo-Dyas had contacted the Kaminoans at that point.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 10, 2012
  4. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus/2014 Celebrity Deadpool Winner

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    Nobody ever corrects Obi-Wan in the films when he says "I was under the impression he was killed before then." Not only that, but the character he's talking about is never mentioned again. No motive is ever spoken of and the opportunity for him to have ordered the clones is thrown into serious doubt just minutes after introduction. That's not a sequence that would convince the majority of the audience that Dyas did this. However when Dooku (a former Jedi) turns out to be evil and working for Sidious, under the name Tyranus, and it fits so well with the plan of Sidious, giving him the motive, means, and opportunity, it becomes the takeaway message for the majority of the audience. Especially when ROTS doesn't touch on the matter and thus forces the audience to fall back on what was ultimately conveyed in AOTC.






    I'd bet the mortgage that the majority of people who never read an EU book aka the bulk of the audience, walked out of ROTS not thinking that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones in the end. If they could even remember his name by then.




    Well again, I disagree that we should trust that Yoda is not being conned with such vague information.

    If Lama Su says that Sifo-Dyas hand-picked Jango Fett and Yoda believes Tyranus hired Jango Fett on some moon and set up payment plans, why can't he say that the two (Dyas and Tyranus) were partners? Why does he say "of our ignorance, another example this is" when Obi-Wan asks if they were partners?

    It's already weird that when Obi-Wan asks if Tyranus could be an alias of Dyas, Yoda says "wished for that I did. But killed Sifo-Dyas was, before on Kamino Jango Fett arrived." An answer like that doesn't cover the possibility of Dyas picking or hiring jango under the name Tyranus, dying, and then Jango gets to Kamino. It should have confused Obi-Wan if not the reader why Yoda worded it like that.







    Well okay. The same would apply to Yoda.





    Indeed. Physically it seemed he was getting stronger towards the end.



    I'm not saying he had a week to hear Anakin out before making the call, but he had time to hear the evidence from the guy he doesn't fully trust.



    Kit Fisto should run up and tell Mace not to assume anything.



    Well I've already stated my thoughts above.




    No. This isn't my skewed view created by hindsight. It's sensible detective work.



    What if his name was Fray-Med? Or Su Cker? Or Mr Deception? The situation itself is frightening that a clone army is being created in the Jedi's name without their knowing about it. Why would Sith even name themselves Plagueis or Venomous or Sidious if it didn't mean anything? Surely they are derived from words that have dark meanings? Now we have a tyrant and the secret army he's helping to create. Obi-Wan would at least have to be open to the name being something purposely dark when he first hears it.




    Are you saying the Jedi would have allowed the clone army to be made in its name if it was discovered 2 years into the project? Are you saying that the enemies of the Jedi in the Senate wouldn't have freaked out at the idea of Jedi creating a secret army just 2 years into the project? Are you saying that politicians like Amidala wouldn't have protested this army in outrage? Or that the future CIS worlds wouldn't have been angered at such a tactic? There is a major motive for Dooku (who the Jedi believe to be a Sith) and Sidious to have exposed this project far far sooner. The project at the very least would have been suspended if not entirely shut down.

    It would not have been that difficult for Dooku to lead the Jedi or the Senate to the project.



    It wouldn't. So why hide it. Let the Jedi and the Senate find the army years before it's not ready. They'll suspend it or shut it down.







    And again, if there are a million bounty hunters in the galaxy and you pick one and I pick one, what are the odds that we picked the same bounty hunter?
    Last edited by HookLineAndSinker, Sep 10, 2012
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Why would they? There's nothing to correct. For one thing, they've only been given the vaguest possible indication of the timeframe: "almost ten years ago". By Obi-Wan's own admission the death of Sifo-Dyas also occurred "almost ten years ago", and this temporal proximity of the two significant events in question is backed up by the EU's presentation. So from what little Obi-Wan has told them about timing, there's no way for them to know whether "he was killed before then" is right or wrong. Also, Obi-Wan's relaying an impression. What are they supposed to say, "No, that is not your impression?"

    The possibilities for the nature of the "evidence" are so limited that he really doesn't even need to ask.

    You suspected Bush all along, didn't you?

    Compassion is the way of the light side. Su Cker probably got bullied in school a lot.

    Being open to it is one thing. However, when it doesn't seem to make sense, in light of Tyranus' army being pitted against Dooku's army, and when there is no actual evidence of anything "dark" about Tyranus other than the name, being open to it does not lead to adopting it as a belief.

    Well, in that case the Jedi could just truthfully say: We didn't create it or authorize its creation.

    Again, this is explained in LOE. So that the droid army is too vast by the time the Kaminoans eventually contact the Republic.

    I don't think you can be so certain.

    This seems to assume Jango is just some random bounty hunter. What if he's considered to be among the best in certain circles, just as Boba would eventually be? We know how Dooku first became aware of Jango, back when Dooku was still on the side of the Republic; thus the only "question" here is why Jango was hired by Tyranus. Reputation? Availability? Knowledge of Galidraan or the Mandalorian Commandos on Tyranus' part? But this really comes back to the historical fact that mercenaries have been known to work ( deliberately ) for both sides of a conflict. If we were to look at each instance of this happening and ask "what are the odds" every time, as though trying to render each occurrence somehow implausible, what would that really signify or accomplish?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 11, 2012
  6. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus/2014 Celebrity Deadpool Winner

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    Obi-Wan: "They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that."

    That being the period of time known as "almost ten years ago." In vague speak as you coined it, he means ten years ago, eleven years ago or longer. If Mace and Yoda know better (as in he died 8 years ago or almost 10 years ago), this would have been a good time to tell their lead investigator while he's out in the field. But they do not. Qui tacet consentit. Silence implies consent. Then Mace follows that up with "whoever placed that order." which indicates they are not convinced that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clone army. Then Dyas is never mentioned again.





    So why then did he even question it to begin with?





    That's not very nice.



    And your answer as to why the Sith choose such darkly derived names like Sidious, Plagueis, Tyranus, and Venomous?



    But it's worth noting in an investigation.




    Nor would they have wanted anything to do with the project.



    I think given the events of AOTC, I can be relatively certain the Senate would not have approved of this secret army just a few years into the project. Hell, even with the discovery of the droid army, they had to give the Chancellor emergency powers because they simply weren't going to approve the use of the clones in time. Exposing that army long before it is ready makes absolutely more sense than the Jedi theory that the Sith let it go unchecked for 10 years hoping to get the droid army built in time so they could battle it.




    Though if there's more benefit to exposing the army prematurely, there's no point in hiding it and getting your fingerprints on it. Plus then when the droid army is finally coming together, the Sith accidentally send the clone template of all people into the Jedi's backyard? I'd say bad luck, but Obi-Wan...



    A mercenary/bounty hunter working for both sides of a conflict in 16th century France is hardly comparable to the scope of a galaxy and its population. Though I am glad you're moving away from the Jedi accepting the randomness of Fett being hired by both. The availability part doesn't wash though as there's bound to be thousands of bounty hunters available if not millions at a single time.

    The Galidraan battle and reputation would tie in as that appears to be the biggest conflict to which Jango would be known for in the EU at that point. Though I noticed on wookieepedia that there apparently seems to be some contradictions over when the battle took place and who was there according to the behind the scenes section. Not surprising.

    When it comes to the films, Obi-Wan, Mace, and Yoda seem to have never really heard of him when coining phrases like "they are using a bounty hunter named Jango Fett" and "into custody, take this Jango Fett." Even Zam with her "it was just a job" gives off the vibe that she didn't think she was working with anyone significant. Not to mention Jango saying "I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." He's being presented as one of many.

    The Galidraan explanation for Dooku hiring Jango in the EU seems alright as the event appears to have some personal meaning to Dooku. Not sure if the Jedi realize that connection in the books though. Doesn't appear to be any perspective on how Tyranus ended up picking the same bounty hunter either. There's lots of conflicts on lots of worlds that involve mercenaries. So again, the odds game.

    I still find parts of the Obi-Wan/Yoda convo in LoE odd. To repeat what I said in my last post...

    If Lama Su says that Sifo-Dyas hand-picked Jango Fett and Yoda believes Tyranus hired Jango Fett on some moon and set up payment plans, why can't he say that the two (Dyas and Tyranus) were partners? Why does he say "of our ignorance, another example this is" when Obi-Wan asks if they were partners?

    It's already weird that when Obi-Wan asks if Tyranus could be an alias of Dyas, Yoda says "wished for that I did. But killed Sifo-Dyas was, before on Kamino Jango Fett arrived." An answer like that doesn't cover the possibility of Dyas picking or hiring jango under the name Tyranus, dying, and then Jango gets to Kamino. It should have confused Obi-Wan if not the reader why Yoda worded it like that.

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  7. Samuel Vimes Force Ghost

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    About Sifo-Dyas and what is said in AotC.

    First, is Obi-Wan right or wrong with what he says about Sifo-Dyas being killed before the ordering of the clone army?
    If he is right then Sifo CAN'T have ordered the army. If he is wrong that still doesn't prove that he ordered the army, it just means it is no longer impossible for him to have done it.
    Yoda and Mace accept what Obi-Wan tells them, they don't question his conclusion, they don't ask for further evidence so until we learn otherwise they seem to accept what he is telling them.

    Second, Jango has never heard of Sifo-Dyas. So the template of the clone army doesn't know who actually ordered it?
    That puts more doubt on Sifo-Dyas involvement. He was recruited by someone called Tyrannus. A very Sith-sounding name. The same Jango also works for Dooku. And lastly we learn that Dooku is this Tyrannus so he hired Jango to be the clone template.

    So what would a member of the audience think about who ordered the clone army after watching AotC?
    Plenty of evidence suggests that Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with it and it was instead Dooku and Palpatine all along.Fits all avaliable evidence.
    If one instead thinks that Sifo-Dyas DID order the army then one must be 100% certain that Obi-Wan is WRONG, merly being uncertain about this is not enough. Then it raises further questions, how did Dooku find out about it?
    Sifo-Dyas can't have hired Jango so who was his choice for a template? Who deleted the Kamino file, was it Dooku or Sifo-Dyas?
    This conclusion first requires you to ignore movie evidence and raises more questions than it answers.

    RotS ignores this issue alltogether so if one thinks that Sido-Dyas didn't order the army then that conclusion won't change.

    About the Kamino file and who removed it. EU says that the Jedi learn that this was Dooku's doing and they think his motive is to prevent the Jedi/Senate from getting it. This reasoning is stupid. First, Dooku could just have let the Senate find about it 6-7 years before AotC which would have shut it down or at least severly delayed it.
    Second, since Jango works for Dooku, he could have arranged for a few "accidents" that would have slowed down or halted production. Third, the Kamino people could have contacted the Senate/Jedi at any time between TPM and AotC, rendering the file removal pointless.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  8. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    Sifo-Dyas could be an alias (of a dead Jedi) that Dooku used for ordering the clone army to Lama Su. But why use another alias (his Sith title) with Jango?

    Regarding the topic: I would rather rewrite "Darth Plagueis" in light of the prequels, and not the other way around. I wouldn't make Plagueis alive so near the events of TPM. And I wouldn't make Darth Maul an unofficial Sith Lord (since both Plagueis and Sidious were alive when he was named Darth).
    Last edited by Alexrd, Sep 12, 2012
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    I thought the idea was Plagueis repealed the Rule of Two, Sidious then trained Maul up to "Darth" standard, with Plagueis's permission.
  10. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    But, as seen in the movies, he does follow it to the letter.
  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    We don't actually see Plagueis in the movies- so we don't know for sure.

    Yoda & Mace believe "always two there are" - but that doesn't mean they're right.

    EDIT: going back to "who do they think ordered the army"- it would be a bit odd for Yoda & Mace to tell the Senators that "there's an army waiting for the Republic to use" if they think that its creator was some guy called Tyranus, who they know nothing about, who lied to the Kaminoans about being Sifo-Dyas.

    For them to be willing to notify the Senade about the army- they'd need to believe that the army isn't a Trap- and if they think a Jedi created it- then that belief becomes less far-fetched.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 12, 2012
  12. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    Sorry, misread your post. I thought you were saying Sidious repealed it.

    We (as the audience) have to assume they're right. Otherwise why even put it in the movies?

    But isn't that what happened? Obi-Wan learns through Jango that Tyranus (not Sifo-Dyas) was the one who recruited him for the army, which in part conflicts with what Lama Su said.
  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Not that much. "Sifo-Dyas handpicked Jango himself" and "Never heard of him- I was recruited by a man named Tyranus" can both be true.

    That is- if Sifo-Dyas picked Jango, but before he could actually approach him, through intermediaries (since Jango is not at all fond of Jedi) was murdered- and the murderer (Dooku) actually talked Jango into it.
  14. Samuel Vimes Force Ghost

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    But handpicked sounds rather hands on if you will. It does not sound like Sifo-Dyas just got Jangos number through the Magazine "Bounty Hunters of the Galaxy."
    Also the Jedi know that whoever ordered the army did so behind the Senates back as well as the Councils back. This makes the army at best illegal and at worst, treason. Would a Jedi really behave in this manner? If it really was Sifo-Dyas, why didn't he at least suggest it to the council? He sat on it as I recall.
    Lastly, Obi-Wans comment that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered MUST then be wrong if Sifo-Dyas really did order the army.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    No, that being the placing of the order, because as I said, the death of Sifo-Dyas was also "almost ten years ago".

    If the two events happened in relative temporal proximity, they wouldn't have anything to tell. And again, the only information they're getting from Obi-Wan about the timing of the order is "almost ten years ago", the same timeframe given for Sifo's death. With vague timing like that, how do Mace and Yoda have enough information to make a determination one way or the other?

    By the same token, they are not necessarily convinced that Sifo-Dyas did not order the clone army. Qui tacet certainty? The scene even contains an admonition not to assume anything, though some viewers seem convinced that the Jedi should be disregarding their own advice.

    How do you know it wasn't?

    But the point is the Republic would still have its ready-made army.

    In the Jedi view pre-ROTS, I don't think there was more benefit to Dooku hypothetically exposing the army prematurely.

    Placing Galidraan is something of a timeline headache given various sources IIRC, but it is not disputed AFAIK that both Jango and Dooku were there.

    That's why I used the phrase "certain circles". Maybe it was an underworld thing.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 12, 2012
  16. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

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    This thread proves we need another movie.
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  17. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Special pleading.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Sep 12, 2012
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Does not fit the definition. Nothing special about it.

    "Didn't see it, didn't happen" = appeal to ignorance = fallacy.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 12, 2012
  19. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    There's so much quoting back and forth that I hope you forgive me not reading a bunch of the prior posts:

    1. "Almost 10 years ago" could be 9 years and 1 month, or 9 years 11 months and six days or ...
    2. "I was under the impression that he was killed before then" indicates date of death is approximate (or unknown), and didn't the EU have it that his body, hence date of death, was NOT known exactly?
    3. I thought Yoda informed Obi-Wan in LOE that Sifo-Dyas DID order the clone army
  20. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus/2014 Celebrity Deadpool Winner

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    So you're saying Obi-Wan was saying to his bosses "I was under the impression he was killed before the placing of the order."



    Mace and Yoda are not aware of what Obi-Wan told Lama Su when they first met. But they did just hear their lead investigator say he was under the impression that Dyas was killed before the order was placed. If they knew he was killed 7 years ago, they would have told him. If he was killed 11 years ago, they'll believe that Obi-Wan is on the right track. If they believe that Dyas was killed "almost ten years ago" which would be around when the clones were ordered, they would make sure their lead investigator is aware of this.



    Did not the council disregard its own advice when it came to the training of Anakin? Hell, Yoda disregarded his own advice when trying to convince himself not to train Luke. Does not Yoda tell Anakin not to miss people because attachment leads to jealousy, then later Yoda tells Chewbacca and Tarfful that he'll miss them?



    Great. So it's listed on the side of theory board in their office that deals with the clone army being ordered under a sinister plot.



    If the project was discovered only a few years into development, they'd have a couple hundred thousand 6 year olds. Based on AOTC, the project would have been shut down or at least suspended.



    Why? Why from the Jedi perspective would they believe Dooku would not want that army prematurely shut down?



    Well maybe in another 10 years they'll figure it out.


    Ah, the galactic social sphere where criminals dwell.
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    But presumably they are as aware of the approximate time of Sifo-Dyas' death as Obi-Wan is.

    Unless they thought he was already aware of it... which he apparently was, so if they had thought that they would have been right.

    How does any of this prove they disregarded their own advice in this case? ( And the situations cited are not truly comparable. In Anakin's case, for example, their change of heart seems to have something to do with the droid control ship. This is, in fact, similar to Yoda changing his opinion on Sifo-Dyas after further investigation. )

    Why should Obi-Wan even assume "Tyranus" is necessarily Basic-derived? The Jedi must hear alien names that sound like "Basic" names all the time. Is it not possible that the name is Ti-rann-ess in some alien, possibly near-human dialect?

    I don't think they would necessarily believe that Dooku revealing the army prematurely would render it unusable in the future.

    I don't know. It literally gave me a headache the last time I tried to work it out.
  22. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    You forgot:

    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."


    But I digress....you position is based on wishful thinking: "Of course the Jedi investigated X, because IF THEY DIDN'T/or sat on X info for 2 and 1/2 years, they'd be negligent fools...."
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Sep 12, 2012
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    star 7
    Covered under appeal to ignorance. But if you insist...

    "Of course, it's not possible they did an investigation and it led to a dead end, because didn't see it, didn't happen, because absence of evidence IS evidence of absence."

    Then again, I can't seem to find the evidence that they sat around for years and never investigated anything... you know, this "absence of evidence IS evidence of absence" thing is looking better and better! [face_thinking]

    ( By the way, Obi-Wan's investigation was captured on film... the question was whether the sound of the name Tyranus was noted. Didn't see it, though, and you know what that means. )
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 12, 2012
  24. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus/2014 Celebrity Deadpool Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    Why would they think he was aware of that when he just said he was under the impression Dyas was killed before the placing of the order?



    You said some viewers seem to think the Jedi should disregard their own advice and I'm saying the Jedi disregard their own advice without the help of the viewers.

    For example on assumption, Mace says he doesn't believe the Sith could have returned without them knowing. Where's his proof on that? Assuming much?


    Mace: "There's no doubt the mysterious warrior was a Sith."
    Yoda: "Always two there are. No more. No less."

    That's a big assumption for Yoda given the other day they thought the Sith had been extinct for a millennium. Where's Yoda's proof that "always two there are, no more, no less?" Not to mention the EU essentially contradicts that with Plagueis, Sidious, and Maul.



    As an investigator, he would want to consider various possibilities. One would be that he just found a secret army created under a lie with a man who is associated with the creation of that army being named Tyrannous. Jango doesn't spell it out for him. It conjures up thoughts like tyrant, tyranny, and tyrannical with defintiions of despotic, unjustly cruel, and oppressive. He would want to keep that under consideration. It's one thing for a man named Tyrannous running a fruit stand, it's another to be a man creating a galactic sized army.




    Why would they not necessarily believe that Dooku revealing the army prematurely would render it unusable in the future?
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    They should expect him to be equally as aware of the timing of Sifo-Dyas' death as they are. I know of no information which would indicate that the timing of Sifo-Dyas' death was only known to certain high-ranking Jedi. And we see from his conversation with Lama Su that Obi-Wan does have an idea of the timing of Sifo-Dyas' death: "almost ten years ago", the exact same phrase used to describe the timing of the clone order.

    Now you're conflating Yoda's views with those of Ki-Adi-Mundi. Yoda's response to that line of reasoning was "hard to see the dark side is".

    An EU book which demonstrates the historical persistence of the Rule of Two in the lineage of the Banite Sith, and ends with Palpatine crowing that Plagueis would not be excused from the Rule, while also showing that Plagueis didn't consider Maul a true Sith, hardly serves as contradiction of the Rule. Yoda's apparent knowledge of the Rule is a subject of much past debate but the EU position usually comes down to Kibh Jeen ( without the EU you don't need such a thing, because in the absence of the EU it is never said that the Rule came about subsequent to the Sith going into hiding ). The central idea is that Sith tend to come in pairs, and we know that Yoda was right: there was another Sith. Making an assumption ( and being right ) when you have evidence backing it up is one thing; jumping to conclusions ( and being wrong ), when there is insufficient evidence to make a determination, is another.

    You'd probably get unjustly cruel and oppressive fruit.

    Why would it be unusable? Are the Kaminoans supposed to kill the clones?
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