PT In light of the "Plagueis" novel, how would you rewrite the prequels? *SPOILERS*

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by ANAKINSKYWEEZER, Mar 15, 2012.

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  1. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6

    So you are assuming that they should expect (or assume) him to be aware of the time of Dyas's death even after he conveyed the message that he believes Dyas to have been dead before the order was placed.




    Then replace Yoda with Mace as he ultimately agreed with Yoda at the funeral and with Mundi at the temple.



    To the movies, Maul is a true Sith Lord. That will not change. To the EU 13 years later, he isn't a "true sith." In another 13 years, something else will be completely different in the EU for various reasons and motivations. It's a contradiction to the rule when 13 years later you decide Maul isn't a "true sith."

    As far as the films go, there wasn't sufficient evidence for Yoda to make that claim at the time he did. He made an assumption. Someone could have just as easily turned to him and said "do not assume anything, Master Yoda, if you want to find the real villains behind this plot." At least he didn't get the Obi-Wan treatment with him turning and saying "only a Sith deals in absolutes" while glaring at the little green guy.





    I guess that's the end of that point of discussion.



    No. But they also are not required to complete their training into creatively thinking warriors.
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    What's the alternative? Why would only some Jedi know the approximate time of Sifo's death, but not others? If Obi-Wan doesn't know the approximate time of Sifo's death, why is he telling an approximate time of Sifo's death to Lama Su? If Obi-Wan doesn't know anything about the approximate time of Sifo's death, what is the nature of his impression that Sifo was dead before the order was placed?

    Just like Yoda eventually decided Sifo-Dyas was involved after further investigation. Because of seemingly conclusive information. "Do not assume anything" does not mean "never come to a conclusion".

    No one ever said Ventress was a contradiction to the rule. Plagueis simply sees Maul as a Ventress. Maul not being seen as a true Sith by Plagueis is an expression of the fact that the Rule still held power over the mindset of the reigning Sith of the time. If belief in the Rule wasn't in force among the Banite Sith as Yoda alleged, Plagueis wouldn't need to see it that way. Yoda's phrasing of the Rule can't even be taken completely literally. He says "always two there are, no more, no less", while addressing a situation in which there is presumed to be one remaining Sith. One is less than two.

    I'm afraid that's wrong. He's not intended to be making things up there. Somehow he knows about the practices of the Sith. In the absence of the EU this is probably just a matter of Jedi history.

    Which would be a really dumb thing to say, if offered as a challenge to Yoda saying ( correctly ) that there's another Sith villain out there. Besides, the Force was still out of balance, wasn't it?

    Come on, you know you've had a cruel banana at least once.

    What else are they going to do with them? Even if the Republic didn't want them, someone else probably would.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 15, 2012
  3. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    Just because something was true a thousand years ago, doesn't make it true today. Especially when you have no real idea what the Sith have been doing in those thousand years.

    As for the comparison of Mace changing his mind to Yoda changing his, one is based off of visual proof on film and the other is something in a book that potentially could have been faked. I understand the reason for such vague evidence in the EU is to neither confirm nor deny Dyas ordering the clones at this point and thus try to keep the mystery alive to explain why the Jedi, with what they could theorize in the films, spent years not coming up with the winning theory. But the door was left so wide open that even on the same page as that seemingly conclusive information, the author has Yoda coming to a conclusion on a related subject while missing something rather obvious in his train of thought. I don't envy EU PT authors.



    I get what the book was trying to do. It was trying to have its cake and eat it too. You get your twist ending with Plagueis running around during the events of TPM while keeping the rule of two if you downgrade Maul. Not sure where Venomous fits in but whatever. I just don't consider Darth Maul to not be a "true" Sith because of a book 13 years later that now finds it convenient. Yoda can be right without proof in TPM regarding Maul and Sidious and right in the EU regarding Sidious and Plagueis.




    Oh so it's okay for you to say he's not intended to be making things up there or making conclusions based on no presented evidence but if I were to say the intention was to convey that Dyas was a patsy and that Sidious and Dooku did the deed based off of evidence actually presented on film, it wouldn't be okay.




    What about Sith only dealing in absolutes? Would that be a dumb thing to say? The writing and all...




    I get it. You really want to move past it. Its okay.



    From the ones that were already created and just children, probably relocate across the galaxy. Plenty of space. They're docile and thus can be taught to grow up and do other things on various different worlds.




    I think Obi-Wan does know when Dyas died. Thus his statement about him being dead before the order was placed. I understand what Lucas was trying to convey. But in the tradition of only Sith dealing in absolutes, having the higher ground, and making overly complex bets with junk dealers, it could have been written smoother. In terms of timeline, Dyas dying almost ten years ago and the clones being ordered almost ten years ago works if Dyas died before the clones were ordered with Obi-Wans statement. It just requires specific dates which Lucas did not bother to give us. It also relies on Mace and Yoda trusting that Obi-Wan (when he says he believes Dyas to have been dead before that) wasn't using his rather generous measurements of time but knew something more specific.
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  4. Jeff McKissock Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 11, 2012
    star 1
    My changes is very small compared to everyone else's but I would have Qu-Gon act a little confused when reading Anakin's medichlorian count. He should feel that is not natural about Anakin. It hints that there is something unnatural about the boy and that something might be up.
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Isn't that kind of already conveyed in the film to some extent?

    Or they can just continue to be trained as an army and sold to someone else. You know, so the Kaminoans can make money. Which is why they're doing it in the first place. They've already incurred significant cost.

    Oppressive pomegranates, perhaps? Surely a tyrannical apple.

    Kibh Jeen wasn't a thousand years ago. ( Also, because of his life span, I think Yoda tends to take the long view. )

    If both events occurred roughly in the same timeframe almost ten years ago, either one could have happened first, regardless of Obi-Wan's impression. Impressions are not guaranteed to be correct. Also, whenever the clone army was ordered, it could not be started until Fett arrived on Kamino. This was after Sifo-Dyas' death. So there are three distinct events relevant to this timeline. It is not outside the realm of possibility that Obi-Wan's impression derives in part from comparison of the timing of the latter two events.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 16, 2012
  6. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    ^^^^This.


    [face_laugh][face_rofl][face_clown] Now we're getting into Monty Python territory...next, we'll have a "new" Sith Lord named, "Darth Mangrove-Throat-Warbler".



    [face_laugh][face_rofl] Two words: sig material.


    -
    Tosche "Col. Basher" Station
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Sep 16, 2012
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    To clarify, I don't think Maul was completely stripped of potential Sithhood or anything like that. He's more of a "Sith in waiting". This kind of thing is not exactly unheard of in the history of the RoT. If Maul had survived Naboo - sorry, if he had escaped defeat at Naboo, thanks TCW :rolleyes: - it seems clear that he would have been the second Sith.
  8. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    But Obi-Wan must know the date when Sifo-Dyas died and he also must know the date the Clone army was ordered because he says the former happened before the latter. We never seen him get told a date for when the order was placed but since he talks about we must assume that he was told. As far as the movies go, Obi-Wan doesn't know when Jango arrive on Kamino, nor is that relevant.Obi-Wan also knows that Jango was not hired by Sifo-Dyas but by some other person by the name of Tyrannus.
    Obi-Wan talks about the date when the Clone army was ordered, not when production began. And as far as he know, Sifo-Dyas was already dead when the order was placed. If he is correct then that means it is impossible for Sifo-Dyas to have ordered the army. If he is wrong, and there is no movie evidence that suggests this, then that still doesn't prove that Sifo-Dyas did order the army, just that it is no longer impossible.
    Obi-Wan had just been scolded by Yoda not to assume anything and yet he makes a point of saying that Sifo-Dyas death occured before his supposed ordering of the clone army. This suggest that he was quite certain about what he was talking about.
    If his memory was foggy about the exact date when Sifo-Dyas died, why didn't he ask Mace and Yoda? This would only take a few seconds.

    Going outside the movies for a moment. If the plan all along was for Sifo-Dyas to have ordered the army, why make a specific mention that he was killed BEFORE the order was placed? Why create this mystery if you are not going to follow up on it?
    Simply have Sifo-Dyas die some years after the order was placed and leave it at that. As it is in the movies, the Jedi don't know exactly who ordered the army and they never find out.

    The shooting version of the script have Sido-Dyas, a fake Jedi and the jedi know this. In the finished film we have a real, but dead Jedi, Sifo-Dyas.
    But we also have Obi-Wan saying that he died before the order was placed, creating the idea that the order was placed under a false name.
    So in both version, the Jedi seem aware that the Clone army was ordered under a false identity.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Since we never see him told about either date, it is possible he conflated the two.

    He didn't say that. He only said that was his impression, not any kind of final conclusion. As such, it falls in line with what Yoda was saying.

    The Jedi in the film display no such certainty. They do not know either way. "Whoever" includes Sifo-Dyas. Sifo is a who.
  10. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    Are you saying that they are building an army over the course of ten years without being paid? Also the Republic can take delivery of what has already been made and do with them what they please.





    They didn't exactly recite whatever the story of Kibh Jeen was in TPM to back Yoda up.




    As Samuel Vimes said, Yoda told him not to assume anything. Then Obi-Wan (the investigator) follows that up by not basing something on assumption or belief without proof.

    When Lucas puts a bust of Dooku in front of the Jedi archives, he's trying to tell you (the audience) something. When Lucas has Jango Fett say he works for Tyranus, he's trying to tell you (the audience) something. When Lucas has Obi-Wan (the lead investigator) tell you he believes Dyas to have been dead before the order was placed and then never mentions Sifo-Dyas again, he's trying to tell you (the audience) something.
    Last edited by HookLineAndSinker, Sep 16, 2012
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  11. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    If Obi-Wan is correct, and the Jedi never question his findings, the army was ordered under a false name. If he is wrong, and he is never proven wrong nor is there any reason to assume that he is, that still doesn't prove that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army. Also, Sifo-Dyas is dead and yet production of the army is still going on. The cost would have been quite high and the Kamino people are unlikely to have worked for ten years without any money. Besides the cost for this army would be way beyond a Jedi Master. So someone else is involved. Add to this, Jango, the clone army template, was not hired by Sifo-Dyas, he has never even heard of him. The Jedi archives have been tampered with. The clone army template works for Dooku, a former Jedi, now turned Sith. Jango is trying to kill the strongest opponent of the "army bill" in the senate. The amount of evidence that screams "Foul Play" is staggering.

    In closing, the filmmaker makes a point of having Obi-Wan say that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered. He makes a point of having Jango say that he has never heard of Sifo-Dyas. He makes a point of showing that Jango is working for Dooku and that Dooku is the one who hired Jango to be the clone army template. All of this was done for a reason. So what is the filmmaker trying to say here? That Sifo-Dyas really did order the army and all of this was just a waste of time? Unlikely.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In the novel we have Yoda & Mace thinking "If the timing is right, Sifo-Dyas must have placed the order right before he died".

    Obi-Wan's statement is pretty tentative "I was under the impression that..."

    Lama Su (in the novel again) mentions the various things Sifo-Dyas said- such as that the Jedi could only lead an army of living beings. Odd, if he never came to Kamino, never talked to the Kaminoans, and the whole thing is a frame-up on Sifo-Dyas by Dooku.

    The idea that the Jedi are not as "morally perfect" as all that- that a normal, non-Fallen Jedi could be willing to order an army of clones- this is more interesting than it all being Dooku's work.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 17, 2012
  13. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    About the novel.
    I don't give credit to things not in the movie for one very simple reason, it wasn't IN the movie.
    If that stuff had been in the movie and we had known anything more about Sifo-Dyas then great.

    As it is, all we get is a name, Sifo-Dyas and all we know is that he was some random Jedi that we never saw and that died some ten years ago.
    Would Sifo-Dyas go behind the councils back and order a clone army? Impossible to say as we never knew him and nothing is said about his character.
    The behaviour seem Un-Jedi and since he was on the council wouldn't he at least talk about the possibility about ordering an army before breaking any number of laws and basically commiting treason?

    On the other hand we know about Sidious and we know that Dooku hired Jango and Dooku is now a Sith and in league with Sidious.
    We also hear Obi-Wan say that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered. Could he be wrong? Yes it is possible. Do we have any reason to think he is wrong? No. We have no more reason to think that he is wrong as we have reason to doubt Tarkin when he says the Senate has been disbanded in ANH. We don't see it happen but then we never get any evidence that disproves what he says.

    In short, the film is telling us that there are a great many things fishy about the clone army and the Jedi are aware of some of them. Who actually ordered the army is never made totally clear but Dooku/Sidious is the most likely conclusion based on the avaliable evidence.
    Dooku/Sidious fits all avalibale evidence and would certainly fit their M. O. For it to be Sifo-Dyas we have to assume that Obi-Wan is wrong for no reason and his motive is never explained nor how Dooku/Sidious got wind of it etc etc.
    Then in RotS the whole matter is just ignored. So AotC is all you have to go on.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Movies are prone to cutting scenes for length. RoTS had several scenes that were filmed, then cut, but remain in novel- similar principles may apply to AotC.

    Did Lucas intend Sifo-Dyas to be the real orderer of the clone army? That's the question. The movie leaves it a bit ambiguous- and requires that if he is, Obi-Wan's "impression" be in error.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    So much for not assuming anything.

    That's not what I was saying. Since we never see Obi-Wan told about either date, it is possible he saw the date of the start of production and assumed the other date to be somewhat closer than it really was.

    His use of the term impression does not connote certainty. In fact, we know from the EU version of events ( which involved Lucas input ) that certainty on Obi-Wan's part regarding this issue would have been unfounded.

    Not in the films, but it was explained later in the EU.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 17, 2012
  16. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    I'm not believing it without proof.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    You don't believe he's trying to tell you something?
  18. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    To assume is to believe without proof. So thus I'm not assuming.
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
  20. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    Stated throughout this thread. Are you done now?
  21. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Which again is not in the move so how is the audience supposed to be aware of it?
    Leaving out crucial info is sloppy filmmaking, a film must be able to stand on it's own. If you must read three or four books in order for the plot to make sense then the film has done a bad job telling the story.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  22. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    This does not change anything, a movie must be able to stand on it's own. If the info is important then don't cut it. If Lucas realized that he didn't have time for all the stuff about Sifo-Dyas but still wanted people to think he ordered the army. Then cut Obi-Wans line where he says that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered.

    AotC isn't very ambigious about who ordered the clone army.
    We have what Obi-Wan says and at the end we learn that Jango was hired by Dooku, a former Jedi, so he could both have posed as Sifo-Dyas and deleted the Kamino file. And Sidious tells Dooku that everything is going as planed.
    So Dooku/Sidious ordering the army fits all avalibale evidence and makes sense and fits their overall plan.
    It is not made totally certain yes, but based on AotC and the total lack of follow up in RotS then Dooku/Sidious is the most logical conclusion.

    If Sifo-Dyas really ordered the army then that leads to all sorts of unanswered questions. Why did he do this, how did he pay for it, how did Sidious find out, what was Sidous original plan since he didn't plan on any clones, etc. etc.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Which the novel, Darth Plagueis, answers all of.

    Yes- the movie skimped on details- but that's Lucas for you.
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Proof that he's really trying to tell you what you think he's trying to tell you? Not found.

    In one version of the script, Lama Su says that the clones were started "ten years ago", and conflates this date with when the order was first placed. Though this did not make it into the final film, it is at least possible that similar dialogue happened between Obi-Wan and Lama Su offscreen.

    This is most likely a hold-over from the "Sido-Dyas" phase of the story. In the released film it had already been made clear that Obi-Wan knew of the Jedi Sifo-Dyas, so "a Master Sifo-Dyas" doesn't really fit anymore, at least not in the way it was originally intended to. Here we may note that transmission interference obscures the "a" and thus the intent of the final film, effects included, may be that Obi-Wan is saying just "Master Sifo-Dyas".

    Not really.

    You already said that ( and again, Obi-Wan reports on an impression, not a fact ).

    He's probably certain that it is his impression. His questioning tone implies he lacks certainty on the point in question and has indeed refrained from commitment to an assumption.

    Why should Mace and Yoda be expected to have any more date information than he does?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 18, 2012
  25. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Exactly.=D=
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