PT In light of the "Plagueis" novel, how would you rewrite the prequels? *SPOILERS*

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by ANAKINSKYWEEZER, Mar 15, 2012.

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  1. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    If Obi-Wan is unsure exactly when Sifo-Dyas died he could ask Mace and Yoda for it.
    He was very recently TOLD the date when the clone army was ordered while it must have been a while since he thought about Sifo-Dyas and when he died. If Obi-Wan is unsure about either date it would be the date of Sifo-Dyas death and that date would be easy enough to confirm.

    Bye for now
    Old Stoneface
  2. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    The proof is in the movies he wrote and directed. To which you disagree.
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No, it isn't. The movies contain no proof of what you think he's trying to tell you. You're merely trying in vain to somehow escape the fact that you assume this without proof.

    If he's supposedly wondering if Jedi ( in good standing ) had anything to do with this, that should apply to Sifo-Dyas.

    No, nothing of that has to be rewritten. The scenario I outlined was suggested as an explanation of the film dialogue, not as a replacement for it. The order was placed almost ten years ago. Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago. For whatever reason Obi-Wan is under the impression that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order was placed. These things are true in either scenario.

    Outside SW, an impression is an impression. But in SW things are a little different, aren't they?

    Who cares? My point wasn't about what the audience would be aware of, it was about what Lucas was thinking when he wrote the script. And this involves a character conflating the time of placement of the order with the time of start of production.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 19, 2012
  4. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

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    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    Like I said in the portion you edited out, "to which you disagree."
    Last edited by HookLineAndSinker, Sep 19, 2012
  5. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Let's all be honest about it...

    The whole "who ordered the clones" and "who erased Kamino from the archives" was simply abandoned in the fims.

    Does it matter what the EU says?

    Honestly, I kind of feel bad for these writers who probably feel obligated to fill in the blanks and bridge the gaps left behind by the poor writing in the prequels.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Not everything is a matter of opinion. Proof of what you think Lucas is trying to tell you would be something like Lucas clarifying somewhere precisely what he was trying to tell you, if that agreed with what you're saying. Continued insistence that your assumptions are correct doesn't count as proof.
  7. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    So Master Kenobi saying that Master Vos is moving his troops to Boz Pity is not some form of proof that Lucas is trying to tell me that Master Vos is moving his troops to Boz Pity? Alrighty then...
  8. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
  9. mastertang Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2012
    I still haven't read this, is it worth checking?.
  10. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    You know what they say, Melancholy.....EU writers "think Lucas' thoughts after him"....[face_shame_on_you]:rolleyes:o_O
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Except he doesn't know that for certain. He only had that impression. This is proved by his question which immediately follows, as he asks Yoda and Mace whether the Council authorized the creation of a clone army. By asking he shows he is at least open to the possibility that this happened. In essence, there would be no good reason to even ask that question, if he were convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered. Fortunately, this is not a problem, because the word impression does not connote certainty, if we use its actual definition instead of trying to redefine it.

    Yes, "almost ten years ago". And this is true in either scenario. Nothing needs to be changed.

    That's an extreme exaggeration. There would be a reasonable expectation that the order date and the start of production would be in some degree of relative temporal proximity.

    The point is not that he means started when he says ordered. It is that he may believe that if Sifo was killed before the army was started, then Sifo was killed before the army was ordered.

    When did I say he was never told this?

    Here on earth impression means impression. This is similar to the mathematical identity X = X.

    It features a character conflating the order date and the start of production. Thus it seems a reasonable assumption that another character could do the same.

    Sido-Dyas, not Sifo-Dyas. Of course it is not possible that Sido-Dyas hand-picked Jango, if Sido-Dyas does not exist.

    And there is no movie evidence that proves he is right either.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 21, 2012
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It's easy for him to have been "picked" yet not have met Sifo-Dyas- Sifo-Dyas selected him, prepared to recruit him- was murdered before they met- and Dooku recruited him instead.

    That, or the Kaminoans are guessing- Sifo-Dyas actually handpicked someone else, told the Kaminoans that but not who- was murdered- and when Jango turned up on Kamino- the Kaminoans presumed that he was the person Sifo-Dyas had picked.
  13. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Apparently so. OUTSIDE SW, a character's 'certain point of view', is just that = a character or characters' point of view. But IN SW, apparently, a 'certain point of view' is ALSO equal to objective in-universe truth/fact...o_O


    :confused:

    And how would you happen to know "what Lucas was thinking when he wrote the script"?
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Sep 22, 2012
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
  15. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
  16. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    But that reasoning doesn't quite work.
    Sifo-Dyas is said to have "hand-picked Jango himself". If he never met him how could he know if Jango would ever agree to this? Having yourself be cloned sounds a bit outside normal bounty hunting. The pay would be good but some people might not want to make copies of themselves.

    Also Sifo-Dyas told the Kamino people that he would come and when. Again if he never met him how could he know that Jango would come and at the exact time? Jango could be busy or it might take a while for Sifo-Dyas to find him. It also doesn't sound that Sifo-Dyas just said a donor would come and when but not say who it is. If the choice had been made what purpose is served by not saying the name? The Kamino people would meet him soon enough so why keep them in the dark?

    From what is said it seems that the Kamino people suggested a Jedi template but "Sifo-Dyas" had another in mind. If this was talked about when the order was placed then that suggest that this template had already been recruited. If this was talked about later then there must have been at least two discussions between the Kamino people and "Sifo-Dyas".

    Also why wasn't Jango told the name Sifo-Dyas?
    Did he just show up and said "I am to be the host for your new clone army." and never saying who ordered this army?
    It would make sense for Dooku to tell Jango that Sifo-Dyas placed the order in case the Kamino people asked any questions.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Impression means impression, including in the phrase "I was under the impression". You're still trying to make an impression into a certainty. But that is not what the word means.

    By working through an intermediary?

    That no longer applies. By the same reasoning Lucas still thinks Han is an alien.

    Don't you think they already have the facilities? This isn't their first project.

    That doesn't describe the Kamino situation, because I'm not assuming Lama Su made a mistake.

    Doubt is fine. But doubt is not the same thing as ruling out his involvement.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 23, 2012
  18. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    star 4
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    What was the reason for "do not assume anything", I wonder?

    If the intermediary is supposed to be operating at the behest of Sifo-Dyas, I don't see the problem.

    There's a difference between script elements which conflict with the final film ( Sido-Dyas not a Jedi ) and those which do not.

    The Kaminoans never seeing him does not necessarily mean he was not involved. The EU shows that it was certainly at least possible that he was involved, despite the Kaminoans not seeing him, and seems to provide a few hints in the direction of his potential involvement: Plagueis says the Force tells him that Sifo will do it, and Sifo tells Dooku that if the latter wants to start trouble then he's way ahead of him.

    He still may think that if Sifo was killed before Jango arrived, then Sifo was probably killed before the army was ordered.

    "That doubt is never removed" becomes "there is no doubt" and "no doubt about it". Sounds like a contradiction.

    Why must the audience come to a "no doubt about it" conclusion?
  20. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
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    star 7
    Too bad the audience isn't held to the same standard.

    Just because you pick someone from a list of available candidates doesn't mean you have to meet that person. In other words, how does "handpicked" automatically mean "met"?

    Not in the film. Now it's only a Jedi working with someone named Tyranus. Big deal. Blame the guy's parents.

    There's one of those script elements conflicting with the films that I was alluding to.

    Apply the same reasoning to "Sido-Dyas" and the Jedi hearing of a Darth Tyranus.

    I really don't know. Maybe Luceno was not allowed to give a straight answer but decided to imply Sifo's involvement anyway.

    Didn't see it, didn't happen? These are only assumptions.

    That goes both ways. Assuming Obi-Wan to be unquestionably right also fallaciously converts doubt into a lack of doubt.
  22. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    No more than assuming that Han Solos name is actually that until I am given reason to think otherwise. Or that the Senate was actually disolved in ANH, or that there is pod racing at Malister, or that the republic actually has laws against slavery. Etc.
    When forced to make a choice between Sifo-Dyas and NOT Sifo-Dyas, the former requires the audience to ignore dialogue, the latter fits all avalible evidence.

    So you can hardly blame the audience for thinking that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the army when the issue is in doubt but the evidence we do have speaks against his involvement.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Actually both require you to conclude a speaker is wrong/lying- it's just that one requires it to be the Kaminoans, the other requires it to be Obi-Wan.
  24. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Fair enough but as we see, Lama Su seems to be in the dark about several things.
    This "Sifo-Dyas" said that he was acting on behalf of the senate, that is not true.
    Lama Su had no idea that Sifo-Dyas was dead nor did he know that the other jedi had no idea that this army existed.
    Nor did the senate and this was an army made for the republic and offically noone in the republic knew it existed.
    So in all, Obi-Wan seems to know more about this than Lama Su.

    So the scenario is this;
    Either Sifo-Dyas really did order the army and Obi-Wan doesn't know what he is talking about.
    Or someone else posed as Sifo-Dyas while ordering the army. This other was also behind the removal of the Kamino file and the hireing of Jango.

    We know that Dooku hired Jango, could Sifo-Dyas have picked Jango before he was killed?
    Unlikely, based on what the script said, the Kamino people suggested a Jedi to "Sifo-Dyas" but he rejected that and said that he had handpicked Jango himself. "Sifo-Dyas" also said when Jango would arrive. For this to be possible, Jango had to have been hired before this was talked about. Since Dooku hired him then either Sifo-Dyas and Dooku was working with each other and Dooku had by now turned to the Dark Side. And Sifo-Dyas didn't notice?
    Or the same person that posed as "Sifo-Dyas" was the same that hired Jango, in other words Dooku.

    In closing, the alternative that the army was ordered under a false name fits all the avaliable evidence and the kamino people were simply decieved. The alternative doesn't fit the evidence and causes even more questions.

    Be seeing you.
    The Guarding Dark
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No, I said the audience should be held to the same standard. Instead, the audience hears "do not assume anything" and somehow that translates into "assume something at all costs". Basically a portion of the audience wants to ignore this message.

    How does "handpicked" in the context of people mean you actually put your hands on them?

    Not in the film. Now it's only a Jedi working with someone named Tyranus. Big deal.

    So that's what he meant when he said he couldn't ride anymore.

    "Almost ten years ago" is all we know for sure about his knowledge of the date.

    No, they don't. The Jedi aren't in the audience. It is implicit in the narrative ( and explicit in EU ) that the Jedi do not know Tyranus is Dooku. Now you're simply rewriting the plot.

    No, it requires no dialogue to be ignored at all. Specifically, the dialogue about Obi-Wan having an impression does not need to be ignored, because we can assume he is speaking truthfully about his impression. What should be ignored is your assumption that an impression must be irrevocable fact.
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