main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT In original ROTS draft, Padme tried to stab Anakin in neck with knife on Mustafar!?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Ghost, May 12, 2017.

  1. JoshieHewls

    JoshieHewls Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2013
    True, but none of us have the Force. ;)
     
  2. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Guess Luke didn't either o_O
     
  3. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013

    Its what the droids conclude because they can' t understand anything outside of logic. As Obi says to Dex, if droids could think like us, then none of us would be here. The will to live is part of a person's spirit. Granted it is a very abstract concept that Lucas used to kill off Padme. Vader did not physical kill Padme, he spiritual killed her unintentionally, he unwittingly choked her though most of the film from trying to save her.

    The whole situation is exactly what Yoda warns Luke about in TESB. Help them you could, but you would destroy everything they fought for. This is what Anakin / Vader did. He destroyed everything she stood for, and even himself for her, and Padme both had a part in this mess and she never asked nor wanted Anakin to do all he did to save her. Vader crushed and desroyed her spirit, and without a spirit there is no will to live as logic based software can understand it as.
     
    Torib and Qui-Riv-Brid like this.
  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Then the droids in the star wars universe must be programmed with the logic that humans with nothing physically threatening their life will die without the requisite will to live.

    She expressed her unshaken faith in Anakin with her dying breath and made little but a sarcastic retort when the formation of the Empire was anounced to the senate.

    I'd love to make something different out of what the film deals us but --

    No physical threat
    + Unshaken faith
    + Annoyance and disappointment

    does not equal

    crushed spirit
    destroyed spirit
    devastation at the loss of everything she fought for (in the pervious two movies)

    and it is not how you try to convince the audience that it's one of those "died of a broken heart" things. Which is just another way of saying someone, for whatever reason, wasn't physically fit enough to take the stress of an emotional trauma. Padme had no reported physical complications.
     
  5. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    I personally interpret that as her having visions of the past via the Force, but misinterpreting them as actual memories. But, like I said, that's just my personal interpretation. I don't know if there's some sort of canonical view.

    I'm just surprised that some fans will demand a concrete, direct, purely physical cause of death for Padme, yet also utterly condemn the concept of midichlorians as removing the mystical concept of the Force (which they don't).
     
    B3 likes this.
  6. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    You're forgetting how a smiling Ani told her how he'd killed innocent children, helped overthrow the Jedi and was planning to take over the galaxy all in her name. And how he later accused her of betraying him and even attacked her. That's got to be horrifying and soul-crushing. Add that to how she helped a tyrant come to power, and the certainty that she and her family would never stop being targets, plus no time to adjust, and it'd destroy anyone's will to go on. She may have faith that some part of Ani is still good, but she didn't think she could reach it anymore.

    Sorry, I'm sounding like a broken record-record-record-record-record...
     
    Slicer87 likes this.
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
     
  8. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    The thing is, Ani is her last hope. She loves him dearly and believes that her love can pull him back from the brink. It'll mean giving up a lot, but it'll save his soul, which is her last refuge in a life and a world that's falling apart. And he responds by dedicating his crimes to her, looking forward to more conquest, believing that she's set him up to be murdered, and lashing out at her.

    That's the moment she loses it all. Not only could she not save the galaxy or Ani, she now believes she helped cause all of this disaster. And there's nothing she can do stop it; she'll even make it worse. Everyone is better off without her.
     
    Slicer87 likes this.
  9. JoshieHewls

    JoshieHewls Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2013

    Luke's journey was tied to his father, whereas Leia was tied to her mother's. I just don't make a big deal out of it, DD. The Force gave Leia memories of her mother, but didn't give them to Luke. I don't need any further in depth explanation, especially since Jedi was made 20 years before ROTS and thus couldn't offer an explanation. And I can't expect a film like ROTS to tie up every tiny loose end from a 20 year old movie, either; so I just trust that the Force granted Leia those memories/visions, and not Luke for its own reasons.

    Peace out, homey.
     
    Kenneth Morgan and Qui-Riv-Brid like this.
  10. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    So you're saying Carrie Fisher's mom wasn't strong enough to deal with the emotional trauma of losing her daughter? And keep in mind that this is all that happened to her -- it wasn't like Carrie died, the world was plunged into a dictatorship and her husband just said, "I killed an entire order -- including children -- all in your name!"
     
    Slicer87 likes this.
  11. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013

    At least that droid did. Droids and other AI in Star Wars can't understand the force, faith, spirituality, or the metaphysical, its beyond them.

    She still loved him and had faith that Anakin, the good man she loved still existed somewhere in the monster he had become. But this doesn't change that she was still broken by what Anakin had did and was planning to do for her.

    When Palps announces the new Empire, Padme is much more than just mildly annoyed, and her comment is mord than just sarcasm. When Obi comes to see her and tells her what Anakin has done, she is horrorrifed at this news and can't accept it. Then she learns from Obi that Palps started the war as a powergrab and played both sides, something she did not know in the previous senate scene and that Anakin has joined forces with him. She flies off to confront Anakin to see if it is true and try to save him from himself. Then when Anakin turns on her is what killed her, not the force choke itself, but how quickly he could reject her and even hate her so much in a fit of rage to attempt to kill her and their child. That alone is certainly enough to break someone's spirit. It is not that Padme chose to lose the will to live and die, it is that Vader destroyed her will to live, effectively destroying Padme herself. Palps, from a certain point of view ( ala Obi), told Vader the truth that in a fit of anger he had killed her.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Debbie Reynolds was in her 80s. Quite the different situation.

    Padme's death looks, to many of us, like a 20-something leader could not handle adversity. Yes, it was a lot of adversity.

    I personally would feel better about it if I could think of a male character in any work of literature or mythology who had had the same or a similar reaction to great adversity. The closest one I can think of is the legend of Aegeas, and his death was active rather than passive submission.
     
    Martoto77 and Darth Downunder like this.
  13. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    Well, it's not literature or mythology, but in the TOS episode "Who Mourns for Adonis", the beings who (apparently) inspired the legends of the Greek gods and goddesses voluntarily just faded away from physical existence once they were no longer worshipped and revered. That includes the male Apollo, who's still alive, though reduced in power. But he's so grieved by his (apparent) betrayal by the woman he loves and rejection by humanity that he just loses the will to continue. And he's a being with a much healthier ego than Padme had.
     
  14. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    I feel ya there. A couple of observations though. This was not a loose end at all. Following RotJ everyone was clear on what happened. Leia & her & Luke's real mother were together during the very early part of her life. Luke was separated from them & sent to Tatooine when they were born. This is why Leia remembered her & Luke didn't. Lucas even confirmed this in various interviews. So rather than not tie up an existing loose end, RotS created a loose end. & a plothole. On the face of it it may seem that we can hand-wave it away with the baby Leia Force-sense explanation. When you walk through it all & include the Organa's & Leia's early upbringing on Alderaan the whole thing comes undone. Lucas just didn't care much about story continuity. Whether that's a big deal or not is an individual thing.
    That's a valid & interesting interpretation, but that's all it is. Your own take on the situation. It sure isn't explained like that in the movie. What the movie tells us is that Padme suffered no significant physical harm & that she'd lost the will to live. Which is surprising since she had two newborn children to live for, the freedom of the galaxy to fight for, & she even still believed there was good in Anakin! Fortunately her daughter was wired differently. She witnesses her entire planet destroyed in an instant. Her parents & her whole family & probably every person close to her obliterated. All that did was steel her resolve & motivate her to fight even harder.
    Firstly, Anakin didn't destroy everything. Their two newborn children for example. Secondly, she still believed he could be redeemed, so she clearly didn't think it was a hopeless situation. Thirdly, I think you're misinterpreting Yoda's dialogue. I believe he's saying to Luke that he is the greatest hope against Vader & the Emperor & only he can save the galaxy. If he leaves before he's ready & is killed or turned to the Dark Side, then the entire cause is lost. Yoda was being quite literal & not speaking about spirituality at all.
     
  15. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013

    I agree Padme wasn't physically injured, but her spirit was. In the early ANH draft, Luke's brother was physically fine, but his spirit was fatally injured, and C3PO, a logic only machine could not help. However, in the draft, Vader intentionally killed Luke's brother in that manner, while in the final ROTS , Vader unintentionally killed Padme in a moment of blind rage by turning against her. You are still thinking that the only answer is she choose to die when the film does not imply this. A person who is dying from cancer can still die no matter how much hope they have. Its not their choice.

    True Vader did not destroy everything, otherwise there would be no OT. But he did destroy the Jedi order, the Republic, and even the good man that was once Anakin. By Mustar, Padme saw the galaxy was going to hell in a hand basket and things were hopeless in that regard from her point of view. That is why she pleaded with Anakin to come away with her to some far off corner and try to live on the edge of the hell she helped to create and save Anakin from Vader.

    Yes, Padme died knowing Anakin was still alive in Vader. However, her having this hope does not resolve the emotional and spiritually damage Vader inflected on her from all the terrible acts he did in her name, becoming a monster and killing the man she loved, to finally completely rejecting her and attemping to kill her. Now the physical attack was not fatal, but the spiritual attack from Vader turning against her to such an extreme was the fatal last nail. The fact he got angry enough to want her dead is what finally killed her, hence how Vader in his anger killed her as Palps says which isn't a complete lie for once.

    I am not misinterping Yoda. Luke wanted to rush in and save his friends at any cost, including dooming the galaxy if he is killed or captured trying to save them. Anakin rushed in and wanted to save Padme at any cost, including dooming the galaxy and himself to do so. Both are responding to their fear of loss and even being selfish to an extent. That is they are only concerned what they wanted and not what their friends wanted. Leia likely would not wanted Luke to risk his life to save them. Nor did Padme wanted the galaxy plunged into darkness for her sake. Yoda sees the pattern with Anakin repeating in Luke and tries to steer Luke away with his warning about rushing in and endangering himself before he is ready as Anakin once did. As Yoda says in ROTS, the fear of loss is a path to the darkside.

    Lucas is a pretty spiritual guy who likes to subvert logic at times and is deep into abstract film making which shows in all the SW films. Padme's death is a very poetic plot element not based on simple logic reality of droids.
     
  16. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Yes it does. She's examined & it's declared that she's lost the will to live. The medical droids say this but more importantly Lucas' own words in the script say this. What gets no implication at all is the idea that regular people have a "spirit". This spirit is a thing & if it's sufficiently damaged they die. That's just your own take on the situation. I think you just don't like the scenario that Padme gave up on life & had no more will to live. As the movie suggests. This doesn't sit comfortably with you, so you've invented an alternative. One where Padme received intangible injuries & unfortunately died. This is your head-canon, which you're completely entitled to. I could say that Palpatine used the Force to kill her from afar. Something the medical droids couldn't detect or understand. Nothing in the movie to back that up though & it flies against the information Lucas gives us via dialogue.
    During Padme's last moments there were still plenty of Jedi, including two in her immediate vicinity. She already had political allies who would be working against Palpatine. She witnessed him declare himself Emperor & didn't exactly seem suicidal about it. As for Anakin, she didn't believe that the good version of him was gone at all. She was all Mrs Positive glass-half-full about it. If anything Obi-Wan seemed far more jaded about things, particularly Anakin. The whole scene IMO makes no sense. She doesn't speak or act like someone who's lost the will to live. Or who had her spirit broken.
     
  17. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013

    Its not head canon and the whole scene is a recycle of a old plot element from a early SW draft which is also Lucas words which you choose to ignore. A person dying from mysterious causes that logic, science, and robots are powerless to solve because it is a higher power above them. As Vader mentions, even mighty machines like the Death Star are nothing compared to the Force. ROTS especially reuses alot of discarded elements from prior films like the early wheeled ATATs and scoutroopers, even Kasheeke from early drafts. Some people will get it, some won't. Clearly you are the latter and we won't agree.
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  18. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    If Lucas wanted to make a point about Padme's damaged spirit he would have. He wouldn't hope that the audience was familiar with some early draft of ANH from the 70's. Instead he chose to tell us via dialogue that she's lost the will to live. When the droid says that to Obi-Wan he's really saying it to us, the audience. That's how films convey information. But...you're free to invent any other version you see fit.
     
    Martoto77 likes this.
  19. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Losing the will to live IS having a damaged spirit...
     
    Slicer87 likes this.
  20. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013

    Exactly. Padme's psyche, soul, spirit, what have you, was damaged by Vader's deeds. My main point is many detractors assume she made the choice to die when the film does not imply this. If Vader had stabbed her, she would not die by choice, Vader would have taken that choice from her. Same thing with Vader doing horrible deeds and even turning on her are what killed her, he took the choice to live from Padme. In spite of all this, she still loved him to the end. It is very similar to the Ten Commandments when the old Pharaoh is dying, and with his last words he broke his own laws and spoke the name of Moses, who despite perceiving Moses as betraying him by wanting to free the slaves, still loved him as a son to the end even though he was forced to banish him from Egypt. Also because she believed there was still good in him does not mean she also believed he could be redeemed, or at least she knew she had failed and could not redeem him. While Obi believed Anakin was truly dead, consumed by Vader and the darkside.This fits very well with ROTJ with how Luke wants to redeem Anakin, while Obi doubts it as he already saw Padme had tried and failed to redeem him and that Luke is doomed to failure as his mother.
     
  21. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Blaming Padme for dying of a broken heart is like blaming a depressed person for being depressed. It's not a choice in either case, and implying that it makes someone "weak" is honestly kind of personally offensive to me.
     
  22. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Yes it does. Will implies choice.
    Nothing about a broken heart is mentioned. Only will, which does imply choice. Not a choice to die, a choice not to live.
    An interesting personal interpretation. One not hinted at in the movie however. By including the line "will to live" Lucas is telling us she's lost the motivation to continue. That's what "will" means. Intent, motivation, choice. So "damaged spirit" is fine as a poetic non-literal expression. Which led to her losing her will. If however her spirit was some "thing" like a vital organ & it was damaged then will would not come into it. Some people here seem to be contradicting the movie & suggesting that she did have the will but her damaged spirit caused her to die against her will. Bcs they don't like the idea of her "giving up". Well sorry but it's GL's story & that's not what he told us via character dialogue. It would've been very easy for him to explain it differently to suit these fan theories. For example, the droids could say they can detect no injuries & can't explain why she's dying. Yoda, being quite spiritual & intuitive could close his eyes & say something like "the Senator's spirit, injured beyond repair I fear. Some injuries, unseen are they but too difficult to overcome, even for the strong among us".

    See, easy. But that's not the story & not in GL's script. He instead tells us that she's lost the will to live, & for some reason in a GFFA that's fatal. Even for a healthy person in her 20's. I actually think this is very deliberate & an important point that he wanted to convey. It's not hard to figure out why. You see Lucas never intended for this to happen in the story. He said in numerous interviews following the OT that the twins' mother cared for Leia for a couple of years & then died. Explaining Leia's dialogue in RotJ. So Vader was never meant to have killed her. Then when he wrote RotS he clearly thought this would make for an anti-climactic ending. Anakin goes into the suit & Padme flies off with Leia to Alderaan & we're to assume she dies off screen some years later. That's nowhere near as dramatic as the scenes we see with Anakin "dying" shown in parallel with Padme dying. Vader being "born" in parallel with the twins being born. I'm sure we can all understand this dramatic choice. He wanted Padme's death to pay-off in the movie & it does so beautifully. But this left Lucas with a dilemma. He probably still wasn't comfortable with having Anakin kill Padme. Sure he showed the character commit terrible deeds in the PT, but having Vader murder Luke's mother was too much. Esp when we get to watching the OT. It may turn the audience against the character a bit too much & reduce our sympathy for him at the end of RotJ. His solution seems to be to have the droids make it clear that Anakin did not kill her. She has no injuries at all. What's more her death is a result of her losing the will to live. Which is kind of a wishy-washy way of having his cake & eating it too. Vader kinda sorta killed her but didn't. Seems Lucas didn't even want to mention a "damaged" spirit or soul, bcs this would point the finger at Anakin as her killer a bit too much. So he lumped the fatality onto Padme's "will". Which IMO was a poor choice. She seemed to have every reason in the world to have more will to live than ever before. She even still thought Anakin could be turned back! Nevertheless, IMO fans here who are saying Padme did have a will to live but died due to an injured spirit/soul are inventing a scenario that is opposed to Lucas' intent for this scene.
     
  23. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Losing the will to live does NOT imply choice in any way. It's not "she is willing herself to die."

    And you're dividing and differentiating things that are not in different, too. "Anakin, you're breaking my heart."

    And losing the will to live is having a damaged spirit... spirit is will. It's the same thing. We're not talking about her soul.
     
  24. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    No but she is not willing herself to live enough to keep herself alive.


    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/will

    something desired; especially : a choice or determination of one having authority or power

    • mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends c : the collective desire of a group "the will of the people"
    • 5 : the power of control over one's own actions or emotions "a man of iron will"
     
  25. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Definitions 2 and 4 are closer to what it means in this context... she's been damaged, she simply doesn't have the will to live anymore, even if she wants it. Her psychological stress has put her body in involuntary shock. She's lost full capability, the natural subconscious habitual action is gone.