ST Incom T-70: X-Wings in the ST

Hi Guys,

I just registered here after reading all of the 54 pages and the discussion that has been going on since then and want to add my $0.02.

I think the influence on most people's stance on these designs is the era when they got acquainted with Star Wars and how much they cling on to the Expanded Universe (it took me a while to let that go.)

So yes, the new Incom T-70 does have a lot of similarities with the T-65 but in 30 years you can't expect a revolution as introduced in the EU, but rather just evolution. I personally had a lot of problems with all the starfighters introduced in the PT as they shook up everything I got to know about Star Wars, from seeing it as a kid for the first time at Christmas early in the 80's to rediscovering it when I saw someone play X-Wing in a computer store back in the 90s.

I got very invested after X-Wing and Tie Fighter mostly thanks to actually buying the latter (X-Wing didn't officially run on my 286 at that time, but I was able to play it) and reading the included novel about Marek Stele. The PC Games added so much history and future to the universe that even I grew a bit wary of seeing YET ANOTHER new TIE design with each subsequent mission. That is a part of the Star Wars Universe that was never properly controlled, especially at that time since the PT was still another 7 years out. That's also why I absolutely love that TIE Fighter animation that showed up last month because it brings me back right to that period of "balance" in the SW universe in regards to fighter craft; Fighters, Interceptors and Bombers en-masse vs X-Wings, A-Wings and Y-Wings. (link: )

The design of the whole PT was also to much of my dismay because the universe I got to know as "boxy" and old-fashioned thanks to all the crafts and technology that was introduced in a timeline before the OT, suddenly had a bright and sleek design that just did not fit-in anywhere because of what I learned about the close "history" through the games and novels. This is also because the ARC-170 for instance, looks like it's going to wipe the floor with a Z-95 any day and I can't wrap my head around the empire going the all single-seater design while the ARC-170 is a much more formidable and versatile craft. not even a low-cost tie could outweigh the facts that your pilots (a finite source) are going to run out soon if you keep throwing wave after wave at your enemy.

But I digress. It is beautiful to see how JJ and KK have tried to infuse the ST with something for everyone and honestly, in a way that makes more sense, specifically in the spacecraft design, be it the swivel turrets of the new TIE "Fighter"s or making the T-70 a more versatile craft by maintaining the armament, but expanding on its sub&translight speeds.

I love the dedication of the fans here, from picking appart the teaser footage to creating simple 3D-renders to convey ideas. I too was stuck with that "Z-95" idea when I first saw the FfC video but thanks to resources like this they quickly helped me hop on the fanboy bandwagon and I hope to see a massive space battle like we saw in RotS. No matter how boring or stale most of the movie was, that opening space battle actually made me feel vertigo when I sat there in the theater on the opening night.

I do hope that everyone stops bringing analogies from the real world into this thread though, Car designs, nae, car designers change quickly and that's why you see a cycle of evolutions/revolutions on an original car design until a new generation of designers takes hold which were born and raised with the original as they fall back on the original design as their inspiration. This is much the same with the Star Wars movies. The people taking their kids to the movies now want to see X-Wings and TIEs duke it out in massive fights in between Star Destroyers, but my own kids will still prefer Jar Jar and the young Anakin in his sleek Naboo fighter as that is a way more kid-friendly movie than the one I was raised with.

 

Ah...that T.I.E. Fighter short animated film. So good. I hope this guy works on a Black Squadron X-Wing short to compliment that, over the next 3-4 years. Such amazing details.

 

The problem is it's unfair for older fans to impose what they liked onto the current generation and calling the design for the PT fighters "kid-friendly". Star Wars has always been kid-friendly, and making stuff for the next generation is always going to be key. What I fear is the fanboys would create a situation whereby we are stuck with X-Wings designs 30 years after TFA.

I think that OT fans are trying to force everyone into conforming to their personal taste, and that kind of attitude will always result in conflict within the fan base. It's just extremely arrogant.

 

Not so much "unfair" as a natural flow of things. The people that grew up with the OT are now in charge of the movies, in 10-20 years you might finally get a Star Wars Anthology: Jar-Jar but as most money can now be made from people 30 and up it would be unwise of Disney to target those gut feelings of us older, senile fans.

Acutally, it would be really awkward from a "taste" perspective if the design went to fall back on the PM timeframe, if anything this is a natural evolution of the looks. I also wonder if PT people are disgusted with the last few minutes of RotS where everything morphs into the OT style. This is something that that PT did clearly wrong, they changed the empire in (seemingly) just a few months, while that process would realistically take years to complete. Preferably during AotC, but instead of already introducing the Empire look at that time already they skipped it until a point where it suddenly doesn't make any sense.

The designers KNEW there would be conflict, but instead of avoiding it, they went for a head-on collision which still hurts the movies to this date.

edit: I'm not a hater of the PT per-sé, there are some very good things in it, the battles etc. and the idea about this empire in conflict. However, in three movies they never expressed the actual necessity of fear, everything is happening in backrooms and meetings which detracts from the movie, really. That's also a very big reason I liked JJ as the director from the get-go. If you watch his Star Trek reboot and compare it with RotS you get the idea where it went wrong. In Star Trek, you are constantly reminded that there is a need for these people to run on screen. when fights happen, stuff breaks. To be honest, even in ANH you have more feeling of "impact" of blasters on the surrounding environment. And TBH, ANH isn't the best acted or produced movie out there, it's cringe-worthy at times.

But now compare that to the endless walking and talking that's going on in the PT, I personally think that when a Jedi Council member discovers that the Emperor is Sith, a little bit more urgency would be required to convey this message.

Last one: like I said, the PT did some good things, remember what I said about the ARC-170? That's one kick-ass fighter, but it makes completely no sense in the whole saga to be honest. If that one showed up in the ST, I'd be more than happy to believe that, but the Empire just went from possessing one of the most versatile fighters in the galaxy to three steps back. Even the T-65 is a step-back compared to the ARC-170 in some regards.

 

Thanks for your detailed response, neliz, and welcome to the forum!

 

It would make money regardless of how much nostalgia was central to the planning process for TFA. The problem is allowing nostalgia to affect storytelling and design in a negative way.

The point is not about adhering to the PT or the OT look, but using criticism of the PT as an attempt to be unoriginal in design. I want TFA to look different from the OT AND the PT.

The designers KNEW there would be conflict, but instead of avoiding it, they went for a head-on collision which still hurts the movies to this date.

The point is the how a director uses visual design to tell a story is just as important if not more important than the need to evoke nostalgia. Evoking nostalgia in a franchise where time moves on is problematic, and it could easily allow the franchised to be trap in time ( visually at the least).

 

Yes, but tugging the heartstrings of those who statistically have more disposable income is generally the easiest way.

That was the Problem, the PT introduced a new "look and feel" of which they somewhere, mid-production realized they were making a huge mistake with it because their designs had to somehow transfer to the OT. It leaves its traces in the current Canon, why would SFS use cockpit design from KDY fighters somewhere during the transformation from Anakin to Darth?

They had one simple task, to give the universe a feeling of darkness and despair as described before in the OT and in EU content. I'm actually expecting we'll see newer fighters or advancements in TFA or EP8, EP9 because of that exact cause. a course had been set even within the OT to replace some aging fighter/bomber models, like the Y-Wing and the introduction of the TIE Advanced.

I agree with you, I think Robocop handled it badly for instance by kicking the nostalgic fans in the nuts and we've seen many examples by Michael Bay where he simply doesn't adhere to the fans' request for continued style and characterization. They earn a lot of money, yes, but they only have short-term gains in their mind and are probably less interested in the fans that already support the Franchise for the past 30 years or so.

 

"That was the Problem, the PT introduced a new "look and feel" of which they somewhere, mid-production realized they were making a huge mistake with it because their designs had to somehow transfer to the OT "

wtf are you talking about? that's completely incorrect. they knew which way the aesthetic was going from day one. way to make stuff up.

 

They knew where they were going, but the realization didn't sink in until way to late it seems, that's why they made some obvious errors canon-wise (which they knew from day one) and we see the ANH look-and-feel introduced in just minutes.

 

that's completely wrong sorry. you do know there's a large time gap between ep 3 and 4 right? what examples can you give to illustrate this canon error?

 

who cares or even knows that? plus it's not canon anymore.

Eta-2 Actis-class light interceptor - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

 

I think you saw a different "final minutes of RotS" than the rest of us. Vader, Palpatine, and Tarkin were aboard a Venator-class Star Destroyer, the same as were used in the recently-ended Clone Wars, and flying escort were Imperial-deco V-wings, not TIE fighters. Probably didn't take long at all to remove the old Republic fleet markings and paint red V-wings gray & black.

You're correct that it's non-canon now, but "who cares or even knows that"? Remember what site you're on. Criticizing a Star Wars fan for knowing minutiae about Star Wars is pretty silly to do here. That kinda remark should only be expected from outside the fandom.

 

the point is it doesn't affect the style of the films which manufacturer made what ship.

 

Easy yes, but is it the best possible way? If you give a franchise to the hardcore fans, a franchise could easily stagnate as we have seen with ST ( before I was rebooted by a non-ST fan). Fans alone can't sustain a franchise, and you need to find a way to bring new generation into the franchise.

Like it or not, the PT did a massive job at bringing SW to a new generation of younger fans, who do not mind the changes as much.

And that is the problem with fandom in general. Fans are generally very conservative in artistic design, hoping to recreate what has been done before as opposed to creating something new. Which is why I oppose having Abrams as a director, because I fear he might fall into the trap of being a fan while making a movie.

The point is listening to the fans might be negative for the company in the long run as well. It's when people try and do something different ( most famously with nBattlestar Galactica) that makes more people interested in watching the franchise, because it provides something new. I think fans deserve to be rewarded with a good movie, and not a movie that sole purpose is to evoke nostalgia.

 

You were rebooted by a non-ST fan? ...I hope they bought you dinner, first.

I'm not too concerned about this, because Bob.

We'll see those new troop transports that may or may not resemble Lambdas/Sentinels minus the wings, and that weird 2-wing shuttle (which may be Phasma or Kylo's personal ship), plus possibly many other neat ships. Rey's speeder's pretty awesome, resembling the dinginess of Luke's speeder while being something very different from the bikes & swoops we saw in the other films.

 

Personally I think those are still too conservative for a movie set 30 years after ROTJ. Just think about the visual designs that were popular in the 70s and compare them to today. In the 70s, no one would even think that we would want computers and designs that are alot less "boxy".

 

...no, they didn't, but now...now we get the First Order iTroopers. And I like 'em! A nice evolution of the stormtrooper... the old EU was ultra-conservative about pretty much everything, so to me these updates are new enough. SW isn't about "realistic advancement", either, as KOTOR should've taught most fans. Fancy, high-concept sci-fi designs totally distinct from anything that's come before aren't generally what SW is about. It's a galactic civilization that's existed, more or less for 25,000 years and had hyperspace travel for most of that time, along with energy weapons, lightsabers, etc. I think we'll see some totally new stuff, akin to what Naboo and the Separatists had in the PT--the stuff used by the greater Republic was clearly bound for the OT in terms of style, while those two entities introduced a lot of wilder concepts.

 

Good discussion, but let's keep it more focused on how these topics relate to X-wings

 

Now I've seen the First Order looking T.I.E. fighters with their white 'wings', it makes me think how ironic there will be a squadron of Black X-Wings.

First Order being out in the open, the X-Wings are more hush hush?

 

A whole squadron, or just one special black X-wing? Pics?

 

the art and the previews we saw all showed multiple traditional X-Wings, so Poe's X-Wing might be a special item in this.

I've also spent time checking the designs of the T-65 and the T-70 that were on display and, while there are some similarities between them the overall design the T-70 would perform radically different:.

Also funny how a lot of the markings on the designs are for #3

 

Speculating here: I'm thinking a whole squadron simply due to the mention of upcoming official short stories that will be printed in Star Wars Insider, they mentioned Black Squadron. If it's only Poe, that's even cooler.

but apologies for any confusion there.

 

I don't know if someone has said this before. These pictures are SO DAMN COOL! Thank you for giving us the link. I think I just giggled like a schoolgirl once or twice.

By the way, I recall someone discussing the cropping of an R2 unit for a ship. The only one I recall them actually doing that for was Obi-Wan's ship in Ep II. In that case, the astromech was not only truncated, but hard-wired into the ship itself.

 

Absolutely.

The design guy (Rick Carter iirc) already said at Celebration that there would be new ships (we even saw some in the trailer just as we saw 4 new trooper designs and a 2 seater TIE). We know from MSW that they explored plenty. By the end of the ST we will totally see plenty of new ships, designs and worlds, droids, creatures, etc.

It looks like Star Wars to me, with enough differences to show an evolution. I think general audiences and most fans will lap it up. Certainly the teaser reactions would back that up.

I also have to chuckle at the inference that the ST might not bring in a new generation of fans. I don't think it's going to struggle on that front.