Lit INDY IS PRATT!? - The Lit Forum Social Thread, v2.0.15

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Master_Keralys, Jan 1, 2009.

  1. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    It's just a personal choice. I'm the type who's able to divorce my opinion of an artist from their work fairly well, but I can understand why others might be a bit more uncomfortable doing so. Frankly, some of my favorite artists (particularly some of the older ones) are people I'd gladly punch in the face. Orson Scott Card isn't even close to being counted among my favorite artists, but I might see the film at some point (especially if John Scalzi is right; if there's any chance that the likelihood of an Old Man's War film hinges on the success of Ender's Game, I'm there), and I'm very much someone who believes opposing gay marriage is, of nothing else, the pinnacle of self-indulgent moral policing.

    Since even Card admits by this point that he fought a losing battle, I'm not very concerned with whatever percentage of the films proceeds going to him. At this point, there's really very little he can do with it. It was one thing a few years ago, when he was using his profits he made from his books to actively campaign against gay marriage. Now he's just a cranky old man. I fund a cranky old man every time I buy a Star Wars book.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Nov 1, 2013
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  2. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    http://www.theatlanticwire.com/ente...movie-profits-wont-go-orson-scott-card/71136/

    Personally, I'm torn on it. I certainly don't believe in censoring viewpoints I find repugnant, and I believe in separating a work of art from the person of its creator. This is especially true when the creator is a historical figure: they're not receiving economic profits, but some things ought to be read even if the people who wrote them were terrible people.

    It's different though when those individuals will actively use the money they get from me for objectionable purposes, which is why (for instance) Chick-fil-A will never get my business.

    Anyway it doesn't matter either way because it's not a movie worth watching in theaters. I saw Gravity yesterday, and the differences between the two could not be more stark -- Gravity was absolutely worth seeing in a theater (and I'd like to see it again) while EG was a waste of time, and I'm sad I spent a movie ticket on it. It's especially interesting because they're both doing zero-g and spacey stuff, and Gravity was just so.much.better.
  3. Havac Former Moderator

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    I wonder if they'll tie the underground hacker thing into Erudito at all, or if it'll just be "in the same universe" in that some Abstergo logos will show up on things as a wink and a nod but it has nothing to do with any sort of Assassin's Creed storylines.
  4. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    I can see support characters show up.
    Show Spoiler
    Shaun and Rebecca for example are also in AC 4 and could easily fit into Watchdogs.
  5. krtmd Force Ghost

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    Thanks for posting that article Jello. My two older kids went to see EG yesterday, while I took the little one to Free Birds (And as an aside, what a craptastic kids movie... it actually played a human character dropping dead from starvation for laughs. O.O ). They loved the book and had been clamoring to see the movie for months. We decided to let them see it, and to use it as yet another opportunity to talk to them about all these issues, and the power of "voting" with your pocketbook, etc. (Like how we no longer eat at the Chik-Fil-A next to the movie theater, or buy Barilla pasta.) In the end, we decided that we did more to support OSC when we bought the book - and were unaware of his views at the time - then by seeing the film.

    IOW, thanks for making me feel better about a decision I definitely had some angst over. And yeah, sometimes you really have to separate the art from the artist.
    Last edited by krtmd, Nov 2, 2013
  6. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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  7. TrakNar Force Ghost

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    I've been pressured to stop shopping at Hobby Lobby, because it's run by Christian fundamentalists. While I would be more willing to shop elsewhere, I lack my own transportation. Of all the art stores in my area, Hobby Lobby is the closest and less of a hassle to get to. Thus, when I ask to be taken to the art store, I need to consider the feelings of who's driving me. Therefore, I tend to choose the closest and easiest-to-get-to store.

    Sometimes, one lives in an area and has circumstances which make being choosy much more difficult. When you lack choices in a rural area, you lack choices. You could either boycott everything, or just say to hell with it because dammit, that store sells the brush pens you use for cheaper than you'll find online.

    When one is pressuring another to boycott a business, one needs to consider the other's transportation and living situation. As I have stated to others multiple times, beggars can't be choosers, particularly when everything is so spread out that it makes things an even bigger hassle to go two counties away to hit up the art store that matches your beliefs.
  8. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Also consider that even if OSC were getting some tiny amount of the profits, so, essentially, are thousands of other people in the movie industry that in all likelihood have views enormously removed from Card's. There are probably numerous gay people who actually worked on the movie directly and are proud of their work and would want you to see it--I don't think punishing everybody because one guy is a jerk makes much sense. Every major motion picture--every major business--requires the involvement of enough people that you can safely assume there's a couple bigots in there and a couple of the flamin'-est gays that ever were. Unless you want to totally divorce yourself from society, it's impossible to avoid some fraction of your money going to people you hate. That's just how it is.
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  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I still shop at Target even though they donated to Michelle Bachmann's campaign, because the other option is Wal-Mart.
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  10. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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  11. krtmd Force Ghost

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    @TrakNar - I definitely get that. Wal-Mart is a great example of that very issue, since a lot of rural areas lost all their options to shop local when the Wal-Mart moved to town. Those folks still need food and toilet paper, and Wal-Mart may legitimately be their only choice. I choose Target because I can - and well, it's easy because my county has effectively kept Wal-Mart out for decades. The power of the union lobby is strong in MoCo Maryland.
  12. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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  13. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    Now if this is true, it is a mistace that needs to be fixed. John Carter or something by Philip K Dick should be higher upp than Ender's game
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  14. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Well, kinda. It's worth pointing out that most of the people who worked on the movie are getting paid wages / salary off of a contract to work on the movie, and won't see a penny of the movie's returns. Those almost exclusively go to theaters, distributors, studios, IP holders, directors, and sometimes (but rarely) others as far as I know. Because I was originally thinking the same thing, that it wasn't fair to punish all the actors, artists, technicians, janitors, caterers, etc etc but I realized they've already been paid and won't get any extra from a film doing well.
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  15. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Yes, and neither will Card--I was speaking of a hypothetical perspective where buying a ticket = supporting everyone who made the movie. Not even janitors and caterers, but creatives like the art department, VFX etc. As someone who actually works in the industry, our good friend @Mazzic could speak to this.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Nov 2, 2013
  16. CaptainPeabody Force Ghost

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    Is everyone who disagrees with you on gay marriage necessarily a 'bigoted jerk'? Is everyone who disagrees with you on social issues included in the category of 'people you hate'? Does opposing gay marriage ipso facto make someone into a pantshole?
    I guess the tenor of this conversation strikes me as kind of disturbing. I have no problem with people not buying products from companies or people that support things they think are bad--that's, obviously, everyone's right, and I can imagine myself exercising it as well. But the seemingly automatic assumption that these people and companies must be terrible monstrous bastards that you want to punch in the face seems to me to be a step beyond.

    My close friends and family include many, many people who disagree with me about a ton of fundamental things about life, the universe, and everything, as well as many political issues that I think quite important. Yet I don't react well to the suggestion that I'm supposed to casually refer to these people as bigots and bastards who are so far beyond the pale of reasoned disagreement that one cannot even abstain from cursing them at every opportunity.

    Seriously, what the kark is wrong with politics these days?
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  17. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    I wants one!!

    --Adm. Nick
  18. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Whether or not gay people are "tragic genetic mixups" is only a "social issue" to people who aren't gay. To gay people, it's known as "existence". Further, we're discussing the politics of one particular person, per pieces like the one I linked to, not gay-marriage opposition as a whole. The "bigots" I mentioned earlier were in the abstract--meaning of any hypothetical stripe. The "jerk" I mentioned, of course, was indeed Card himself.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    This is not the best place to get into it but there's a thread on the Senate Floor you might be interested in.

    I wouldn't say that you are "supposed to" refer to people who oppose same-sex marriage as bigots or curse them, not if you don't want to.

    But other people are certainly entitled to find them as such and boycott their products. Barilla pasta is lousy anyway.
  20. krtmd Force Ghost

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    I can't really say it any better than @CooperTFN. I would only add that I find a big difference between people who may not support marriage equality and those who actively campaign to prevent it or malign it as "deviant".
    Last edited by krtmd, Nov 2, 2013
  21. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    a_g: Recommending someone willingly enter the Senate Floor is just about the cruelest thing a person can do :D

    Anyway, to add a bit to what Coop said:

    I'll be the first to say that politics is ridiculously divisive these days and the "us vs them" mentality is disturbing, but we're not talking about an issue of public policy here. We're talking about a profound lack of human empathy and the willingness to ruin lives to satisfy some element of personal comfort, whether it be rooted in religion or not. See, it's not just a matter of his opposition to gay marriage -- there can be a number of legitimate reasons for it, and while folks may disagree, I don't think that's inherently indicative of bigotry.

    However, Card's writings (even the recent ones which he hasn't disavowed) make it clear that he thinks of homosexuals as less than human. He paints a connection with their way of life to sexual predators, and insists that it's the origin of that "behavior" (which he calls it). He advocates the violent overthrow of any government which condones homosexual marriages.

    That's not a political view, that is definitionally bigotry. It's not any different from somebody who went out and advocated the reinstitution of segregation or slavery, and argued that the Constitution which prohibits them ought to be destroyed for going against the laws of nature. I would really hope that sort of commentary would be treated with abhorrence.
  22. CaptainPeabody Force Ghost

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    I've spent my fair share of time on political forums in the past, and it's not an experience I have any wish to relive.

    I admittedly don't know almost anything about Orson Scott Card, though just reading over his article now, I see that the "tragic genetic mixups" line Coop referred to is definitely not a reference to gay people, but seems to be referring to literal hermaphrodites. And according to Wikipedia, at least, Card has denied connecting homosexuality with pedophilia in his recent stories.

    His suggestion that he will oppose any government that supports gay marriage "as a mortal enemy" and advocate its overthrow is quite crazy, though. And I certainly view with abhorrence everything that treats people as less than human--and if Card is guilty of this (and you certainly know more about it than I do), then so much the worse for him.

    However, casually treating the huge number of Americans who oppose gay marriage for various reasons like murderous madmen also strikes me as a bigoted and nasty position to take.

    In the interests of full disclosure, I should probably add that I don't support the cause for gay marriage, for a lot of reasons that I don't need to get into here; but getting called a bigot really doesn't bother me in the least. What does bother me is seeing many of the kindest, most selfless and generous people I know being casually condemned as moral monsters on the level of the Klu Klux Klan for taking what is for them a perfectly reasonable and principled position. And believe me, I also get mad when people who support gay marriage are demonized. I simply don't find casual condemnation of people you know nothing about a particularly attractive or reasonable thing.

    One of the saddest moments of my life was logging onto facebook on that dreadful 'chick-fil-a day' and seeing half of my friends (including lots of lovely and kind people) declare the other half murderous homophobes inspired by hatred, while the other half (which also included many lovely, gentle people) declared the others liberal oppressors trying to control them. It honestly made me want to cry.

    This is not to accuse any of you lovely people of this; it's just to explain why I reacted the way I did. Godspeed, gentlemen and ladies.
    Last edited by CaptainPeabody, Nov 2, 2013
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  23. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    Tee-hee, typo on the word "mistake" :p

    As for the other issue at hand, there are few things in this world I enjoy less than arguing politics (has anyone's political opinion been changed through an internet debate?), so all I will say is this: opposing gay marriage is not enough to make you a monster (for they surely still have a heart :cool:). It's actually quite scary, to look into the history of the KKK, or even something as recent as the Westboro Baptist Church; conventional wisdom would suggest that all members are less civilized than ravenous dogs, but some of them come across as fundamentally decent people.

    I do, however, believe that opposition to gay marriage is one born of ignorance and fear, two things that attack good people as often as bad. Any position that advocates taking rights away from others, rights that don't effect you or the people around you in the slightest, is most likely not going to be a position decided through logic rather than a gut reaction.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Nov 2, 2013
  24. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Hi. Actually, amusingly enough, one of those times includes my view on this very issue.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Nov 2, 2013
  25. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    Do tell. Anything fundamental?