ST Integration of the Sequel Trilogy into Pre-Existing Ring Structure: Can It be Done?

Someone on the starwars7news.com pointed out this thoughtful thesis which I have just been reading:

http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ring-composition-chiasmus-hidden-artistry-star-wars-prequels/

I am quite impressed by it as there were several things I had not observed in the past, most notable Anakin's reliance on computer targeting (R2) at the start of ROTS, in stark contrast to the ghostly Obi Wan's advice to Luke to trust in the force, leading to Luke turning off his own targeting computer.

The essay as a whole details the various mirroring aspects and overall structure of the saga thus far, so I encourage you all to read it. It is definitely one of the more thoughtful essays I have read online, outside of academic journals, for quite some time. Therefore, I'd strongly encourage those of you interested in the overall structure of the saga and how scenes parallel each other to read it.

Anyway, it leaves a question we must consider. Given the structural unity so far and the "closing of the ring" at the conclusion of ROTJ, how can the sequel trilogy possibly integrate into this structure without violating the existing harmony? Can another layer be superimposed on the ring or injected into it? If ROTS-ANH is no longer the mid-point of the saga, what will be?

Further to that, if Lucas is no longer involved in the production, I wonder if much thought will be given to structure. Abrams is known for making pastiches so whilst he may replicate scenes and play with variants on them (and this seems ever more evident with the new "superweapon" concept art seeming to mirror the Yavin scene) how will he bring in something new to expand the story and integrate it into the saga as a whole or will this just be a cheap rehash? Do he and Kasdan have the skill to make something more and does Disney as a corporate entity have the desire to go beyond merely milking the cash cow and churning out generic space adventures?

In short, how can the ST be grafted onto the saga without violating its existing artistic unity? Do Abrams and co have the skill, desire and vision to do so?

Discuss.

 

Well you know when Lucas came up with the story, he wanted to connect it all in some way. I like that ring theory, it is well thought-out.

However, as you said, he's no longer involved so it remains to be seen if they stick with his formula.

I think to some degree they will, but I'm just guessing.

 

I like that it also addresses something that I have often pondered which is Padme's inconsistent character and descent from pacifism into a warmonger, prepared to sacrifice the Gungans to win:

It seems to me that Lucas' failure is in not conveying emotional states of his characters clearly enough. We don't have much insight into Padme's thought processes and psychology. Perhaps she could have had a conversation with Palpatine that discussed her thoughts, revealing her decision to go and fight at the end of that, having conveyed her emotional state in more detail and showing her anger and frustration that is taking her down this dark path. As it is we just have the key word, "fear", spoken by an emotionally-flat Natalie Portman, in her sentence, “I fear by the time you have control of the bureaucrats, Senator, there will be nothing left of our cities, our people, our way of life.” so fear is indeed leading to anger which will ultimately lead to her taking a violent cause that leads to mass loss of life (and a seeming victory which justifies the course on the surface but is, indeed, as the writer of the essay notes, actually a loss.) Again, maybe a scene with dialogue between her and Yoda or between Qui-Gon and Yoda about her decision could have brought this more to the fore. I am all in favour of subtle film-making without everything being spelled out for the audience but I think things like this could have been conveyed more prominently without bludgeoning the viewer over the head - just have something that shows Yoda's warning about the path to the Dark Side applies as much to Padme and everyone else as it does to young Anakin.

 

Great thread idea! I actually just read the ring theory today and was wondering the same thing. I think the key to the ST might lie in the following excerpt...

If the PT represents the Yin (a fall to the Dark Side), and the OT represents the Yang (the triumph of the light side), the ST will represent the Dao somehow, a balance of the Force. How that manifests in the plot and characters, I'm not quite sure. It seems we're already getting examples of balance: a Stormtrooper that's a good guy, an X-Wing pilot that's a bad guy (maybe), the dialogue in the teaser referring to both sides of the Force awakening, the title itself being neutral rather than referring to good or evil, etc. The filmmakers appear to be on the right track, and I'm curious to see what "Third Way" they have in store.

Another option is that they could do 12 episodes total, four trilogies (as Lucas at one point intended), with Lucas' saga being the first half and the non-Lucas saga the second half, and ROTJ/TFA being the new crux of the ring.

 

Perhaps there will be a neutral Force user, who is neither Jedi nor Sith. One with no allegiance whatsoever to either side.

Maybe a prophet of some sort, I dunno, but someone who lives by a strict code of non-intervention and calls it like it is without desire to further their agenda?

Far-fetched perhaps, but hey with nothing else to talk about why not bring up my personal thoughts.

 

I forgot to add my final point when I wrote the above before: the very first image we see inthe TFA teaser trailer is Finn with a very (to the point of hammy) expression of fear on his face. This makes me wonder about this character's psychological state and whether he is on the path to the dark side. If he really is a soldier, it is likely his fears have led him to darkness. If he is defecting and renouncing his past, perhaps this is a significant first step away from fear towards the light side.

If the uniform is just a disguise, his character, if consumed by fear may have to learn detachment and ways ofovercoming his fears lest the role he plays becomes a reality and he succumbs to the dark side. Either way, if fear is a defining aspect of his character, as it seems to be presented in the trailer, he may ultimately end up having some very interesting conversations about it with Luke or even with Yoda's ghost.

 

I read the ring theory and kept the ST in the back of my mind wondering how it was going to fit. I think this Third Way might be to way to go. I also thought about a new ring cycle beginning with TFA. Episodes 1 - 6 forms a ring that tells a complete story and Episode 7 - 12 will form another. Two rings each told with two trilogies.

It all depends on if 7 - 9 are the last chapters in a 9 part story or the beginning of a new six part adventure.

 

I've actually wondered if Luke is going to serve such a purpose. After throwing away his lightsaber in ROTJ, I could totally see his character evolving into that.

 

In terms of the Dao, in the opera house speech, Anakin mentions that the Sith rely on their passions. In the Sith, this means selfish emotions but passions of themselves are arguably not necessarily bad things. Anakin's attachment to his mum and to Padme are two of the things that lead him down the path to the dark side and Luke's attachment to his sister is nearly the straw that breaksthe camel's back yet in the end it is a father-son bond that saves Luke and redeems Anakin.

BTW, all of this makes Qui Gon a more ambiguous figure. He shows a great deal of compassion to Anakin and Shmi but he does not reaffirm Yoda's warninga bout fear being a path to the dark side to Anakin nor to Padme. He only says he cannot fight a war for her and he warns many Gungans arelikely to die but he does not dissuade her from the dark path she is heading down right before his eyes. Unfortunately, I feel I have to attrbute this toLucas' weak script writing skills. The psychologies of both Padme and Qui Gon should have been explored much more, IMHO. Oh well...

 

Possibly, but unless Luke changed a lot he's always been on the side of good.

That being said, I could see him removing the Jedi order from any sort of political affiliation. That caused a lot of problems before, and eventually led to their downfall in the PT, so I would agree with this move.

 

Echo - not gonna quote you, but I like your way of thinking.

I agree about the Sith. While they are driven by different things than the Jedi, good and evil are really a point of view. For example, I may think that some things are wrong and you may have no problem with them... or vice versa.

 

Story wise or not, I doubt disney will let Star Wars just end at 9. We'll get to episode 12. We're looking at a new saga for sure!

 

Hmmm... I tend to believe in the Kantian Categotical Imperative personally, FWIW. In terms of the films though I am just thinking not all passions are bad passions and things may be a little more nuanced than Anakin claims in theopera house or than Yoda feels with regard to attachment being always a bad thing.

 

I think that the Ring theory is excellent and I think that there is a conscious attempt to make it happen based on a few of the spoilers...

Not very insightful I know... But I am in work!

 

i wondered the same thing in another thread.
i dont know how much actual "work" gl had for the years and years in the run up to tpm/prequels but he obviously put a LOT of time into planning it out to make it form a perfect 6 part saga.
does jj as a young director have the time to plan it out as much? does the current team understand the reliance on myth as much as the previous bunch? i dont know. i really dont know these answers which is why i am putting the questions out there.
no i am not a drooling prequel lover, just thought the actual movies were good, better than any regular movie but not as good as anh, esb, and a majority of rotj.
BUT and its a big but, the prequels perfectly complemented in terms of ryhming and symmetry the OT.

 

Another thing is that, as the paper states, TPM is clearly a prologue. Although it mirrors ROTJ in many ways, the latter is not an epilogue so, in that sense, a concluding episode is still needed.

 

This is a very interesting topic and I'm too tired to make as coherent a reply as I'd like. The thoughts that are rattling around my head are:

1)Maybe we'll see two rings of six films.
2)Given some of the theories and speculation that have been put forward with regards to how TFA opens, this suggests that TFA will have a similar structure to ANH which would support the two rings of six films concept.
3)Given that George doesn't have anything at all to do with the ST, all of this interesting discussion could wind up being chucked out the window like George's story treatments.

 

Another idea is that there are two rings of six within the nine films: the PT/OT, and the OT/ST, where the PT mirrors the OT a certain way, and the ST mirrors it in different ways (possibly going out of its way to NOT be like the PT). So when you step back, you see that the OT is the centerpiece of the whole thing, branching off in two separate directions.

I would assume if it were intentional, Lucas would lay out those structural rules in the outlines and treatments. I'm curious to know if the ideas JJ and co. "threw out" were of a structural nature like what we're discussing (big picture type stuff), or more involved with plot and characters.

 

Okay, having read the whole article, I do think its likely they may try to expand the ring theory. The trick though is that with nine films, it puts the mid-point flip square in the middle of ESB and the front and back half of ESB do NOT match the ring structure.

As such, my bet is they'll go for a more complex version of the ring structure wherein the Introduction/Prologue (i.e. Episode 1) stands apart from the ring proper. In terms of pairings that would shift the mid-point to the END of ESB/start of RotJ. The fact that the story of Han's rescue/reuniting the true companions is incomplete at the end of ESB and carries over into the open of RotJ only makes that being the point where the ring turns back on itself even more obvious.

I also think it works rather well with what we've heard in terms of the story for TFA. Specifically, that the ending of RotJ is NOT the final victory of the Rebellion over the Empire, but merely a decisive battle that reverses and mirrors the Imperial victory at Hoth at the start of the ESB/RotJ pair. The battle is won, but the war will continue on for years.

Setting the circle in such a way would also then pair The Force Awakens with A New Hope and between the passing of the torch to a new generation of heroes, missing Jedi masters, a certain desert planet (that they'll probably have to escape from aboard the Falcon with a plot McGuffin in toe and Imperials on their heels no less) and a rumored super-weapon in play I'd definitely say all the pieces are in play for TFA to be the mirror of ANH in an expanded ring structure.

This would then pair Episode 8 with 'Revenge of the Sith' and with Rey and, likely Finn, beginning training with Luke by the end of TFA, we'd finally see the reversal of the Jedi slaughter with multiple new Jedi finally rising to prominence. It would also likely involve the final end of the Empire (mirroring its birth in RotS), but conversely might end up with the start of a war against the TRUE villain of the ST who has supplanted the Empire as the Big Bad (i.e. Serkis and or Driver and whoever he's allied with).

Finally, Episode 9 would pair with 'Attack of the Clones' as the war against Big Bad enters its final phase and the legacy of Anakin Skywalker is finally resolved (just as his start of darkness began in AotC) and probably wraps up with some sort of ending gathering on Coruscant mirroring the beginning of Episode 2. The thing is though that beginning of Episode Two also happens to butt up against the END of Episode ONE... and so it seems likely that, at the very end of the nine part saga we'll get a mirror of the finale from Episode One... a massive celebration of opposites uniting against a common foe and of friends and companions all gathered together at the head of the party (which would also mirror the ends of ANH and RotJ).

 

its a pretty complex thing to do after seeing all of the complimentary camera angles and details from one trilogy to the other. it would be awesome if jj and co. were to make it happen.

 

I'm not 100% sure I understand the thread, but I'll try.

I've said numerous times that I can see the Alliance join forces with Imperial remnants to defeat the Sith. That's kind of a ring I suppose.

You start off with a Republic in the PT and end with an Empire. Then, you start with an Empire and end with its defeat at the end of ROTJ but no solid new government or entity. You end up with the ST as a unified coalition against the ones who have been evil all along-the Sith and you have a new Republic formed again. But it is one that is completely wary and cognizant of the real threat-the dark side of the Force.

Am I understanding this correctly?

 

I'm not 100% sure I understand the thread, but I'll try.

I've said numerous times that I can see the Alliance join forces with Imperial remnants to defeat the Sith. That's kind of a ring I suppose.

You start off with a Republic in the PT and end with an Empire. Then, you start with an Empire and end with its defeat at the end of ROTJ but no solid new government or entity. You end up with the ST as a unified coalition against the ones who have been evil all along-the Sith and you have a new Republic formed again. But it is one that is completely wary and cognizant of the real threat-the dark side of the Force.

Am I understanding this correctly?

 

Did it ever occur to anyone that just maybe Lucas never even heard of the Ring Theory and that he just tried to tie in the movies as best he could by rhyming. The story arc for the movies are great but don't you think people are making them out more than they are with this ring theory nonsense. Sometimes an apple is just an apple. Because truth be told, if Lucas did intend this "ring theory" in the PT he would have mentioned it as a defense a long, long time ago.

 

i think there are too many examples of symmetry and stuff for it be a coincidence. plus we know his influences. i see how perfect he made it, but in no way am i standing up for the actual movie itself and just because he's a genius tying it all together doesn't fix anything that i found weak about tpm. just sayin his whole idea worked, his individual moments in a lot of the movies fell flat for me. could have just used a little less animation at times and real dudes in armor and i probably would have been way more satisfied.

jedijax thats a great idea and that would make so much sense. 2 sides neither good nor bad depending on point of view, merge and become one again.

 

I have been thinking about it some more: the original six films were all pastiches of elements from other genres, as we know: notably Flash Gordon serials, Samurai films and westerns (amongst others) in the OT and Ben Hur/biblical epics, noir detective stories and 1930s horror (Whale's Frankenstein) in the PT. The anxiety now is that Abrams will not develop his new film as a pastiche from these sources but start to cannabalise elements from previous SW films. Lucas imitated/borrowed/stole from a whole heritage of film-makers but Abrams may limit himself to imitating Lucas. (He obviously did this with Star Trek into Darkness where he lifted and inverted the ending of Wrath of Khan so blatantly that many viewers considered it not just derivative but parody.) In one sense, doing this, copying images from images is very post-modern (see Fredric Jameson or Baudrillard). Lucas takes a fictional representation of the world of Samurai, recasts it as fantasy with no real reference to historical fact and the Abrams in turn reuses Lucas' version, so we grow more and more distant from first Samurai reality and then even from Kurosawa's fictional presentation of it. If Abrams does so, he will situate his Star Aarsin relation to other Star Wars films and the modern blockbuster tradition but not as part of the broader cinematic traditions as Lucas did with his original six pastiches.

To go back on topic, mirroring structures is one thing bht copying whole scenes would cause concern to many viewerswho would start to find the films derivative. Each SW film has drawn on images and content from other cinematic sources. Perhaps if this film does feature pirates, as currently rumoured, Abrams will draw on the genre of pirate films, popular from the 1930s to 1950s with Errol Flynn swashbucklers like Captain Blood and the Seahawk and revitalised in recent times with thesuccess of Disney's Pirates of the Carribbean franchise. That gives some hope that Abrams will be looking further than Lucas' existing films to construct his new pastiche. It will be interesting to see if the space pirates do indeed reference earlier pirate films and how the ring structure is injected with other new elements from as-yet unused existing genres.