Intellectual Property vs. The People's Rights

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by RoboNerd, Jul 25, 2002.

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  1. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
  2. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Thank you, Darkside_Spirit! :).

    I wonder if this subject will actually generate some public hearings...it certainly should. More likely, the RIAA will push to have it passed as quickly as possible to stifle debate.

    Peace,

    V-03
  3. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    Boycott the end product. As long as record companies are still making the big bucks, it's their way or the highway.

    Piracy isn't the real issue.

    Record companies aren't afraid of losing a billion here a billion there... not nearly as much as they are afraid of ceasing to exist entirely.

    As long as they maintain the monopoly on music distribution, it won't be just consumers who continue to get the short end of the stick... subject to the effects of payola and a million other schemes destined to keep mediocre product marketable... but also it will continue to hurt the artists, who are now on the cusp of the digital revolution... ready to become completely independent...

    Religious institutions, political institutions, and corporations each resist the decentralization of information... because it is the single greatest threat to their existence. The men who run these institutions continue to sit on their thrones of power as long as we are wholly dependent upon them.

    Change the channel.

    Close the book.

    Turn off the radio.

    The revolution will not be televised.
    - Gil Scott-Heron
  4. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    That Hacking bill is insane - very nice post on it, Vaderize.

    I have never made money off of anyone else's intellectual product (I'm a screenwriter, so I know how I'd feel if it was done to me), yet I have tons of files that could be seen as violating that bill, if I understand it correctly. They're strictly for my own personal use, but if the burden of proof is on me, how can I prove a negative, namely that I had no unlawful intent?

    Wow, why did we have that American Revolution thing?
  5. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Thank you, TreeCave :)!!

    I just don't see the point of this bill. If they pass it, all I have to do is purchase another computer, download files that I want from my first computer, and simply transfer them over. I just won't plug the second computer into the internet.

    These guys are just plain dumb, don't they know we can find ways around this stuff pretty easily?

    Peace,

    V-03

    ps totally agree with the post on decentralization and these idiots worrying about holding on to their little empires
  6. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    That's a good point.

    I heard from a friend that the latest versions of Adobe software have a device that allows the software to send your serial number over the internet back to Adobe without your awareness. That way, if you download it illegally using a serial number you found on the net, they catch you.

    This, too, can be worked around even without a second computer, or so I've heard. I wouldn't try it myself.

    I'm not averse to paying reasonable prices for quality programs, and I use a lot of expensive web design stuff. But after paying for two or three upgrades, it has occurred to me I've paid hundreds to make up for some clever person who got himself a free copy at my expense. I'm being made to pay for this guy's software for him, and frankly, it makes me feel entitled to "share" some free software myself.

    And yes, I do feel the same way about shoplifting - the cost of shoplifting is built into what you actually pay, if your honest (dumb?) enough to pay for merchandise. I can't imagine how much I've paid so shoplifters can have it for free over the years. Maybe we should have a "National Shoplifting Day" for paying customers to come in and loot legally.

    That's one thing I really hate about a capitalist market - the unpaid bills of cheats just get passed onto honest people, effectively punishing honest people for being honest. It's one thing for life to be unfair, but when a straightforward process like "I sell you this, you pay for it" gets twisted around to punish those who don't abuse the system, that's just idiotic.
  7. RoboNerd Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 2
    Yes, TreeCave, I definitely see your point. The difference, however, is that department stores don't have to right to strip you naked, pat you down, and take inventory of your personal possessions when you enter & exit the store.

    These bills being debated in Congress right now are the equivalent. They must be stopped, and if they are passed, then it's time to start seriously considering leaving this country. Good God, if they pass these laws -- what's next?!?

    +=o RoboNerd o=+
  8. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    The difference, however, is that department stores don't have to right to strip you naked, pat you down, and take inventory of your personal possessions when you enter & exit the store.

    Actually, there have been some cases darn close to this - people being intimidated into submitting to strip searches by security teams at stores.

    There is a growing trend in the US for average citizens to be at the mercy of every store, every govt office, every everything. Now, no reasonable person minds heightened security at an airport. But this stuff was getting weird LONG before 9/11.

    I keep asking, where are the conservatives on this? Why aren't the yelling, "Hey, govt, get your noses out of our business?" Why is it the totally inane liberals who are griping about this stuff. I wish more conservatives would look at this as an invasive "big govt" issue, and maybe we could all come together and tell DC to get out of our faces. I hate to sound like Mulder, but the ways they're able to track us all through credit card spending, internet use, etc. is frightening, and unprecedented in US history, and no one in govt seems to get that this needs to be watched carefully, at the very least.
  9. RoboNerd Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 2
    Yet Another Doozy,

    ZDNet has a story about the next bill being slid under people's noses, in order to take yet more rights away.

    Yes, another one. It seems like Biden, Hollings, et al., are determined that if they can't get everything they want in one bill, they're going to attach their paid-off... errr... "suggested" laws as riders into other bills, specifically, those bills aimed at terrorism and computer crimes.

    This bill makes it illegal to bypass watermarking measures in digital hardware. In other words, an MP3 player that refuses to play a non-watermarked MP3 (IE, those that don't come straight from the RIAA Monopoly) --- $25,000 and jail time.

    Unfortunately it seems the mass public doesn't understand just what these people are trying to accomplish. If they get their way, public libraries will be gone. Educational use of materials will be gone.

    This is not about piracy -- this is about the Right to Gain Knowledge. This is about the Right to Compete. All you're seeing right now are a bunch of bribed Congressmen trying to pass laws that will protect the music & movie industries from the march of progress.

    +=o RoboNerd o=+
  10. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    The revolution will not be televised.

    That's so odd. I was just listening to that song/poem a couple minutes ago.

    You know, according to the CSEA, hackers can also be eligible for a life sentence. Am I the only one that finds this a little extreme? We lock up murderers for life. As far as I know, hacking has yet to kill someone.
  11. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Actually, we rarely KEEP murderers in for life, we just make like we're going to to keep voters happy. But the hackers we'd keep in for life, because THEY could access govt files, and the govt prefers to be on the giving end of snooping, not the receiving.

    I swear, there will be a revolution or civil war during my lifetime if the US govt doesn't get peacefully taken over by the people! That's supposed to be funny phraseology, but I am totally serious - I can see this happening. We really aren't in control anymore - we're lorded over by special interest groups trading money with no concern for us. We're not represented anymore - how many people feel their reps stand for them? How many people trust the USSC to make sane Constitutional decisions? How many people would even consider Bush the legitimate president if it weren't for 9/11? I'm NOT trying to start a Bush or election 2000 debate with that one (this time, anyway) - I'm just saying how many Americans feel represented in DC anyway? And how many fewer would feel that way if 9/11 hadn't brought everyone together for a nice round of patriotic fervor? Once it's business as usual, we're going to have a disillusionment that makes post-Watergate look like an episode of the Brady Bunch.
  12. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    The RIAA, MPAA, DCMA, and anyone else who tries to screw with my stuff, can suck my lower extremities.
  13. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Something pretty funny: My boyfriend e-mailed our state's senator about the CSEA and he got some weird response about how 9/11 happened because of the internet and how all hackers are terrorists and are the cause of all that's wrong in the world.
  14. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Who is your state senator? I want to introduce this person to Falwell, who blames feminists and gays for it. This senator of yours and Falwell might make a lovely couple. If the thought of Jabba the Hutt in romantic situations could be described as "lovely", that is.
  15. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Okay, let's keep things on track here :).
  16. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I agree with everything you said, Vaderize03. You put it so much better than I ever could, but that was what I was TRYING to say.
  17. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Sorry for getting off-track, KW.

    A more on-topic point would be that I shall vomit on anyone who uses 9/11 as an excuse to pry into the lives of loyal American citizens in ways that would make the founders of the country likewise vomit. If the price of security is having no privacy, then bring on insecurity! After all, we all have to die someday. We do NOT have to be violated.
  18. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    For example -- let's say the latest Disney DVD's 5 minutes of commercials before the movie blocks the fast-forward button. By modifying the player to allow you to fast-forward anyway, you would be guilty of tampering with anti-circumvention devices, and would face 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

    It's ridiculous that someone would have to watch the same commercials over and over again everytime they want to watch a movie. [face_plain]
  19. Cailina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 4
    You know, according to the CSEA, hackers can also be eligible for a life sentence. Am I the only one that finds this a little extreme? We lock up murderers for life. As far as I know, hacking has yet to kill someone.

    Actually from the link I read at slashdot.org (don't have the link handy) what it actually does is say that if a hacker cracks into something which results in people dieing, then they are eleigible for a life sentence. Of course in that case, as was pointed out at /., they'd be eligible for a life sentence for killing someone anyway!
  20. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Rebecca191, you are a doll :) :) :)!!

    You know, I'm just a normal guy trying to live a normal life, but for some reason, I keep tripping over the tremendous piles of sand our leaders have made from digging holes to put their heads into.

    Anybody got a shovel?

    Peace,

    V-03
  21. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Awww, thanks.

    Here's a shovel. ;)
  22. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    This bill why die in the Senate. Even if it did not, anyone with half a brain would take the bill to court on 4th Amendment violations. This would be a clear definition of Unreasonable search and seizure.
  23. RoboNerd Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 2
    Maveric,

    The only problem with the Fourth Amendment in this case is the fact that the bill limits liability for committing searches and seizues by private corporations. It's something like the way bounty hunters can bypass lots of legal restrictions when they chase fugitives -- except that in this case, the RIAA, MPAA, BSA, et al., will have carte blance to search upon a whim. The Constitution applies to the actions of government -- not to that of corporations.

    +=o RoboNerd o=+
  24. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    And why should private corporations have rights in this area that the government doesn't have?
  25. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    The only problem with the Fourth Amendment in this case is the fact that the bill limits liability for committing searches and seizues by private corporations. It's something like the way bounty hunters can bypass lots of legal restrictions when they chase fugitives -- except that in this case, the RIAA, MPAA, BSA, et al., will have carte blance to search upon a whim. The Constitution applies to the actions of government -- not to that of corporations.

    RoboNerd, you are wrong on this account. If you look at the text of the Fourth Amendment, it says:
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    Note that it does not say "Congress shall make no law..." like the First Amendment, instead it says the right to be secure in our "persons, houses, papers, and effects" shall not be violated. It does not add the words "by the government" after that phrase. That right is granted to the people, not constraining the government.

    It is that right that gives me the ability to have a tresspasser thrown off my land. I do not have to let anyone onto/into my land or property (including my computer) if I don't want to. The only exception to this is in the case of the government having a warrant, issued upon probable cause shown to a judge. This bill would violate that right to be secure in my property (computer) against "unreasonable searches and seizures".

    Kimball Kinnison
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