Inter-Faith Chapel, Now Disc: Made to Worship?

Having studied the Bahá'í Faith from the outside, I feel comfortable commenting about it if anyone has any specific questions. I also have Bahá'í friends I can ask for more information.

One thing I can tell you for certain is that it is a direct offshoot of Islam, but the question of whether it was merely a heretical variation of Islam or its own religion was decided in 1925 by Egypt's highest religious court, concluding that the Bahá'í Faith could not be reconciled with Islam and had to be deemed an independent religion.

 

Surely, though, if some schmuck steals your car, the government has the right (and I would argue the duty) to do something about that that brings about some level of justice -- either by forcibly returning your car to you, punishing the criminal, or both.

That is the sort of issue where I think human individuals (or human governments) can bring about justice.

 

Bubba: We absolutely pardon the term pagan...it is a word full of stigmas and connotation BUT it is the correct term! Pagan means "from the earth"

Death....great topic. Paganism and Wicca believe the "spirit" is in nature. We come from the earth and we return to the earth. To further this we are seekers of the truth...we do not believe we know everything...we can't we are human. So in turn many Wiccans/pagans follow science and see developments in science as an extention of the "path to the truth" Scientific discovery in no way contardicts our beliefs (i.e. the way some see evolution) The clearest way I can describe our beliefs in death is this: There is a LAW of physics that states that Energy cannot be created nor destroyed . Energy can ONLY be converted between forms (potential>kinetic>electro magnetic..etc.) So...since humans are energy when we die that energy is transfered, not taken from the "plane of existence" All the energy in the universe from the time of the Big Bang until now is still here. There is no more and no less. Matter becomes energy and energy becomes matter. Look at population...as there are more and more humans on this planet...there are less and less animals and plants. Hope this makes sense since I am over simplifying for the sake of discussion.

Bubba: in response to your above statement. Of course the police should find your car BUT...shouldn't we strive for a community and culture free from these acts? I'm talking about the ideal situation not the current state.

 

This leads to an interesting topic for debate.
Is this "energy" you speak of, which I am assuming you are claiming as the human soul, coming from the biological processes of breathing, the firing of neurons in our brains, the very essense of living, or is it something that is in exclusion to our biological processes?
Are we a soul, or do we have a soul? The bible is quite clear on the subject if you are interested.

 

Well, you see there are these things called midichlorians...

 

OB1: I am aware of the Christian idea of the soul. I equate "the soul" with conscienceness. That which makes us...well...us. The energy I speak of is not a metaphor...It's a basic componet of the universe. The known universe is made of matter and energy.

When a human dies...the body loses 21 grams of weight. Some Christians explain this as the soul leaving the body...this is the energy I speak of...energy has mass.

So, in a way, your equating the human soul to my explanation of energy is correct from your religous perspective. But since physics doesn't allow energy to be destroyed (for example: leaving this plane of existence and going to Heaven, that's the major difference in our veiws. Think of it as similar to reincarnation minus the dogma.

Whew...I'm glad my explanation was intelligible.

Lemminglord: It was only a matter of time before Star Wars was used in a post! And I'll use it...think of the pagan view of death like the Jedi but instead of transforming into the force (which we all know permiates and exists everywhere) People transform into energy. Just replace "Force" with "energy".

 

On the question of death and the spirit, the Bahá'í faith has a conception of the soul predictably similar to that of Christianity and Islam. On the question of judgment however, it is markedly different. The soul's journey reflects the ideas behind progressive revalation. Just as humanity in general has received prophetic updates to the divine message as humanity's ability to process those messages advances, the soul takes a spiritual journey in life that does not end in death. Consequently there is not an idea of a pass/fail system of divine judgment after death based on your actions/beliefs in life. Rather the individual can either make as much progress as possible on this spiritual journey in life or not make much progress at all. There is the idea that we cannot afford to squander our chance at spiritual development during life, but it comes without threat of being cast aside by God for failure. There can't be joy without striving toward progessing on that journey toward God.

 

The misconception of Christendoms understanding of what a soul is is quite common. I however do not hold those beliefs. I contend that the biblical understanding of the soul is that we as living breathing individuals are a soul, not that we have a soul.

 

Oops..Sorry OB1...only an *** assumes...pardon me...

Can you please explain...I'm not very familiar with this belief, I've heard it before but never had anyone explain it.

 

In the Bible, ?soul? is translated from the Hebrew word ne´phesh and the Greek word psy khe´. Bible shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys and that the soul is not immortal but can be destroyed.

EDIT: Forgot to include a few scriptures. And mark-ups

Gen. 2:7: ?Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul."
Notice that this does not say that man was given a soul but that he became a soul, a living person.
The part of the Hebrew word here rendered ?soul? is ne´phesh. KJ, AS, and Dy agree with that rendering. RS, JB, NAB read ?being.? NE says ?creature.? Kx reads ?person.?

1 Cor. 15:45: ?It is even so written: ?The first man Adam became a living soul.? The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.?
So the Christian Greek Scriptures agree with the Hebrew Scriptures as to what the soul is.
The Greek word here translated ?soul? is the accusative case of psy khe´. KJ, AS, Dy, JB, NAB, and Kx also read ?soul.? RS, NE, and TEV say ?being.?

1 Pet. 3:20: ?In Noah?s days . . . a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.? The Greek word here translated ?souls? is psy khai´, the plural form of psy khe´. KJ, AS, Dy, and Kx also read ?souls.? JB and TEV say ?people?; RS, NE, and NAB use ?persons.?

Gen. 9:5: ?Besides that, your blood of your souls [or, ?lives?; Hebrew, from ne´phesh] shall I ask back.?
Here the soul is said to have blood.

Josh. 11:11: ?They went striking every soul [Hebrew, ne´phesh] that was in it with the edge of the sword.?
The soul is here shown to be something that can be touched by the sword, so these souls could not have been spirits.

Ezek. 18:4: ?Look! All the souls?to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son?to me they belong. The soul* that is sinning?it itself will die.? (*Hebrew reads ?the ne´phesh.? KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy render it ?the soul.? Some translations say ?the man? or ?the person.?)

Matt. 10:28: ?Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul [or, ?life?]; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul* and body in Gehenna.? (*Greek has the accusative case of psy·khe´. KJ, AS, RS, NE, TEV, Dy, JB, and NAB all render it ?soul.?)

Acts 3:23: ?Indeed, any soul [Greek, psy khe´] that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.?

The consequenses of this is when you die thats it, you don't float up to heaven, or float down to hell, you simply cease to exist. You're in a sleep like state conscience of nothing at all. Ec 9:5, Ps 146:4

Now with that said, there are a select few who are ressurected to a heavenly life, but that is another topic apart from this discussion of "what is the soul" and is therefore irrelevant.

 

C.S. Lewis echoed the line about a human being a soul rather than having a soul. The imagery he used to express Christian thought about the body and the soul was that of a horse and rider.

Currently, the soul is a less-than-adequate rider on an often very unruly horse. Christianity asserts that, one day, the two will be reconciled. It's not that the horse becomes tame or even that the rider becomes an expert: it is that the two become a centaur.

 

But that would entail two separate "entities" if you will. A rider (the soul) and the horse (the body). Certainly the scriptures I've provided disproves that line of thought. Especially in our current state!

 

Thanks guys...

Also the Greek psy khe' is the root of psyche...which definately falls in with my own association of the "soul" as being the conscienceness.

 

OB1, I'm not sure I entirely agree with your interpretation of those passages you cite, though I've probably debate more than enough topics for one week.

 

That's where the word came from ! It also seems to support the idea of man is a soul rather than has a soul!

They seem pretty straight forward to me. Not sure how else one can inturpret them considering the other translations interpretations of the words in question all seem to harmonize with my interpretation of them.

 

I disagree. You claim this word psy khe' basically means conscienceness.

I have shown you that you are no conscience when you die, at least according to scripture.
I did not quote them simply due to people frowning at scripture. But here they are in case you're wondering:

Ec 9:5 "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten"

Ps 146:4 "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish"

So sorry, I cannot agree that the same root word supports both ideology.

EDIT: Spelling, grammar, the ususal *sigh* I give up!

 

BUT...by definition the same root is used for both the words "psyche" and "soul" the interpretation may be different but both are used to describe the same concept. I didn't intend to imply that psy khe' MEANS conscienceness. Don't get me wrong I do see the differences between your beliefs and mine. In the case of your beliefs where does the conscienceness come into play? In the Bible God does give humans free will. What you do with that free will provides basis to the conscienceness does it not?

Don't worry about using scripture...it's the same as using quotes or providing references.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around your definition of what a soul is and how it can be destroyed...in this belief "what" accends to heaven after death if anything?

 

Not sure I understand your question, but I think you might be confusing conscience and conscienceness.
Conscienceness is your thoughts when you are awake.
Your conscience is that little voice in your head that tells you something is wrong.

Nothing. Your gone, you turn to dust, you no longer exist. God however remebers every detail about you so you can be re-created when the ressurection occurs.

 

Then why did Jesus tell one of the thieves on the cross, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise"?

(Heck, for that matter, why did Jesus imply in Matthew 22:43 that the Patriarchs were still alive in the first century? Questions like these are why I'm not sold on your interpretation of other passages; tackling those passages on their own, those interpretations might be fine, but they run into difficulties with other passages.)

 

OB1Actually I've been trying to avoid conscience (little voice) I mean what makes you, you. That thing...that touch from the divine that allows you to reason. As you put it your waking thoughts. From this context what happens to your conscience when you die? Does it just cease to be? Sorry I was unclear and a little confussing in my last post. I re-read it and I'm just full of so many ideas and your opening my mind to a form of Christianity I am completely alien to.


NOTHING...just dust and the memories of God? Sorry if I missed you mentioning it before but what form of Christianity is this? It just seems so different than the sterotypical Christianity most of us are familiar with. Is there a heaven? Or...from what I get from your last post...there WILL BE one upon the end? This is just very interesting to me and please pardon my ignorance.

 

So Jabba, does that spiritual journey include the notion of reincarnation?

The Bahá'í faith accepts Krishna as one of God's manifestations and so ties itself to the sanctity of Hinduism. That said, some aspects of Hinduism seem to be incompatible with the Bahá'í faith, including the caste system, idol worship, and maybe in particular reincarnation. I'm not sure if the notion of spiritual growth has an end goal. The Bahai faith concerns itself more with the here and now than the afterlife. They hope to spiritually perfect human civilization as a whole, and not just the individual and his/her soul.

 

Not at all Bubba

In reference to your question about Luke 23:43 and the use of the word ?today.? Although WH puts a comma in the Gr. text before the word for ?today,? commas were not used in Gr. uncial mss. In keeping with the context, the comma is ommited before ?today.? Syc (fifth cent. C.E.) renders this text: ?Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.??F. C. Burkitt, The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, Vol. I, Cambridge, 1904.


Matthew 22:43 reads:
"He said to them: 'How, then, is it that David by inspiration calls him ?Lord,? saying"

How is this implying David was still alive? I'm sorry Bubba I'm not following you on this one.

In the first century when Jesus himself says in John 3:13 that no man has ascended into heaven. Paul even affirmed this thought concerning David at Acts 2:34.

It would appear your understanding of Mt 22:43 runs into difficulties with what the rest of the Bible says.


EDIT: Sorry that made no sence hopefully its better now!