Interesting Dialogue/Dichotomies In ROTS

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Cryogenic, Oct 18, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    For all the derision and distase that Lucas endures from critics and fans alike, I find it interesting as to what he achieved - either purposefully or unwittingly - in Revenge of the Sith. Through some exceptionally clever linking of dialogue, Lucas established some interesting dichotomies and ambiguities...

    Dichotomy #1:

    "The Sith think inwards, only about themselves."
    "And the Jedi don't?"
    "...he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying..."


    I think this one, perhaps owed to the way Palpatine articulated it with that seductive vibratto of his, slipped by a lot of people. Did anyone spot the contradiction? A Sith that CARED about others? As you can see with the other lines quoted, not even Palpatine refutes the notion of egocentrism being the essence of a Sith - he merely concedes the point by attacking the Jedi and pretending the two are equal. Thus, his tale of Plagueis is deliberately embellished; laced with a contradiction applicable only to... Anakin.

    Link #1:

    "Darth Plagueis The Wise"
    "If you wish to become a complete and wise leader..."
    "You have great wisdom, Anakin."


    Does anyone else see what Palpatine was REALLY doing here? The simple answer is that he was buttering Anakin up. But that's a vague and emphemeral way of looking at it. Study the dialogue again. With the first statement, Palpatine establishes an archetype - someone who is a product of "legend" but cannot possibly exist in the "real world" (both phrases are used in Star Wars, by the way - Palpatine uses the former himself in the same scene and Padme tells Anakin they live in a "real world" in Attack of the Clones). Thus, Plagueis is nothing but a fabrication. But he's an archetype and therefore an appealing fabrication - especially for someone like Anakin. With his additional statements made directly to Anakin, Palpatine is clearly alluding back to his tale at the opera. To Plagueis. It's a sly way of making the Sith cause out to be more virtuous than it is (i.e. virtuous at all!) AND a way of implying that Anakin can potentially gain wisdom - the same wisdom as Plagueis. In this fantastical sense, Anakin can become Plagueis. He can become an archetype! Afterall, he is the Chosen One! Sadly, of course, he should have listened to the words of his wife - he lives in a real world (relative to Palpatine's tale) and there was no way he could ever have achieved what Palpatine was suggesting.

    Link #2:

    "I need your help, son."
    "...he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life..."


    This is yet another devious link placed there by Lucas and expressed just as deviously by Palpatine. I don't necessarily believe the idea that Palpatine "fathered" Anakin to be any truer than the above revelations - it's just another piece of Palpatine's elaborate web. But it's a mighty subtle link. It's the sort of thing that Lucas' detractors just don't credit him for when I feel they should. It is doubtful that someone who is the "tin eared" writer that many claim would be capable of such subtle shading. "I need your help." That woulda worked fine. But one word - "son" - dramatically transforms an otherwise straightforward line into something stealthy and suggestive.

    Dichotomy #2:

    "...he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying..."
    "Get a medical capsule immediately!"


    If ever there was an example that showed the disparate nature of Palpatine/Sidious, this would be it. When the former line is articulated, it is done by Palpatine while he is sat - and it is spoken softly and calmly with an underyling hint of smugness. Sidious, as Palpatine, knows exactly what he is doing - he feels his masterplan is on the verge of coming to fruition and is privately gloating about the ease and inevitability of its final execution. Anakin is his for the taking. It seems appropriate that the EXACT opposite of EVERYTHING I've just said applies when the latter line is articulated. For now it is being uttered by Sidious while is standing - and it is spoken loudly and frantically with an un
  2. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    Nice post

    That is a really unique idea.
    Although I'm not sure if Anakin made the connection between wisdom and Plagueis himself, what makes your theory quite credible is the extension of those lines:
    "If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a... larger view of the force."
    Then later on in this same scene:
    "You have great wisdom Anakin. Learn the power of the darkside. The power to save Padme."

    In Anakin's subconscious, there probably was a goal of achieving everything Plagueis had, and thus becoming that archetype to an extent.

    But I still think Plagueis was a real person, even if Sidious fabricated the tale a bit.

    Haha, it would seem so. Interesting comparison of scenes.
    I hadn't thought about the use of "Anakin" here, I think this might be a very overlooked detail of the scene. It could be for several reasons. Well "spotted".


    I have one of my own, although it is a little more obvious than yours.

    "I need your help, son."

  3. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
  4. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Great points from the both of you, thank you.

    Outstanding catch! I'd seen both of these lines discussed in isolation - but never paired up before! That's the exact same thing I tried to do with my thread. Glad you understood me. And, once again, an outstanding catch! Again, for whatever reasons and on whatever levels, an equivalence is being made between the Sith and the Jedi - an equivalance that is, as you've also noted, not untrue (from a certain point of view). See how Palpatine is both GLORIFYING and CRUCIFYING Anakin at the same time? On the one hand, he's telling Anakin how important he is; he's needed by both sides; he's important to both sides; he's essential to both sides. Is that false? No. Palpatine needs him to turn against the Jedi and acquire "unlimited power" whereas the Jedi need him to overthrow the Sith and restore balance. Yet Anakin is being pulled apart at the seams. Both groups want him and both groups are pulling him in their opposing directions. Where is his home? Who are his friends? Who are his enemies? Who should he believe? Why is he being asked to do the things he is?

    If there's one thing Lucas is a master of, it's irony. I also like your particular analysis here: "in some ways and without realising it". That's important. I think a lot of people were irritated by Obi Wan's blindness and stupidity, and by proxy, the Jedi Council's blindness and stupidity. Coudln't the Jedi Council see their own hypocrisy? Couldn't they understand their own limitations, their own failings and their own Dark Side? I think it's significant that the two remaining Jedi - Obi Wan and Yoda - are the only Jedi from the Council to recognise their folly: "I have failed you, Anakin, I have failed you" and "Failed, I have" speak volumes. In Revenge of the Sith, as the shackles go on Anakin/Darth Vader, so they fall from Obi Wan and Yoda.
  5. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Sidious: Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us.

    Yoda: Faith in your new apprentice misplaced may be, as is your faith in the dark side of the Force

    AND

    Vader: You're either with me or you are my enemy.

    Kenobi: Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

    Im discussing this at the moment in the 'Only a Sith deals in absolutes' thread.

    In the context of this thread you can see that Sidious is dealing in absolutes and Yoda is telling him that the future is not set and his faith may not be rewarded.

    Compare this with the dialogue shared between Vader and Kenobi.

    This is the moment Kenobi truely realises that Anakin has become Vader - A Sith. Vader is seeing only one end, like Sidious. He believes his way is the one and only way and that if Kenobi isnt with him then he is his enemy. Kenobi is showing that Vader is dealing in absolutes, something the Jedi steer clear of as "always in motion the future is" and "all the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our qwon point of view".
  6. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Good points... but how do you explain Obi Wan's attitude to Vader in A New Hope? He mockingly calls him "Darth" and a "master of evil" all in the same line! Luke is the only one who feels that Anakin can be redeemed - after untangling Obi Wan and Yoda's lies!

    This is one of those seething contradictions, I suppose. Not so much because of Lucas' formless writing style in which an epic story took decades and endless diversions to write (though that's certainly a factor) but because, in some senses, Obi Wan and Yoda don't deserve Qui Gon's "party trick", as it were. For all their wisdom, they're still dealing in absolutes. As I said above, the shackles came off them in Revenge of the Sith - but they didn't take all the steps to enlightenment that Luke did.
  7. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Good points... but how do you explain Obi Wan's attitude to Vader in A New Hope? He mockingly calls him "Darth" and a "master of evil" all in the same line! Luke is the only one who feels that Anakin can be redeemed - after untangling Obi Wan and Yoda's lies!

    But do we know the Jedi's true feelings on Anakins redeemption in the OT or is everything they say there for the benefit of Lukes training?

    This is one of those seething contradictions, I suppose. Not so much because of Lucas' formless writing style in which an epic story took decades and endless diversions to write (though that's certainly a factor) but because, in some senses, Obi Wan and Yoda don't deserve Qui Gon's "party trick", as it were. For all their wisdom, they're still dealing in absolutes. As I said above, the shackles came off them in Revenge of the Sith - but they didn't take all the steps to enlightenment that Luke did.

    I disagree. this is being discussed in the thread about whether the jedi think Anakin can turn back to the light. But anway, my view is that the Jedi's role is to train luke. they dont give an opinion on what luke must do when he faces Vader. Luke is hell bent on saving his father, the Jedi are just being sensible by saying that Luke may need to do something else. Lukes attahment to his father is dangerous.

    Keep in mind this very important line:

    "All the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view".

    The Jedi don't deal in absolutes - that means they shouldnt command Luke on what he should do in an absolute way (i.e. kill Vader), they should ensure that he see's all the alternatives (Turn, kill, sacrifice or run) and that he should make the choices himself (face his destiny alone and decide what to do with rational thinking).
  8. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    An exceptionally good post! I guess it irks me that the Jedi aren't the straight shooters they could be by the time of the OT. Luke might be the one to change that at ROTJ's end - or not. He certainly bears no ill feeling towards Obi Wan and Yoda at the close of the saga.
  9. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I've just thought of another one...

    Do what must be done.
    I shall do what I must.

    Possibly unintentional (as Obi Wan's line may have been meant as a mirror for Qui Gon's line and nothing more - and maybe even this wasn't intended). But it sure is interesting, no? And that's what this thread is all about. Perhaps one way of looking at Revenge of the Sith is as an inevitable tragedy - it's a film built on inevitabilities and this informs and enhances the tragic nature of it all. Unlike Lucas' detractors who claim that the inevitability of Revenge of the Sith and its various plotpoints is a negative, I see it as an enormous positive: Lucas actually exploits the fact that the outcome of the Star Wars saga is known by making it seem FATED to happen. Think about it. Palpatine/Sidious didn't just sweep to power in the third film by bumping off the old Chancellor and magically killing off a bunch of valiant Jedi Knights; he exploited existing flaws and fallacies from the start. Episodes I to III have a pleasing cohesiveness about them; there's a snowballing effect in evidence that makes the tragedy seem even grander and more significant. It's not the suddeness of events that renders the pathos; it's the ever-growing inevitability. As things froth and ferment, the tragedy is only being made to taste more and more bitter. And boy... was it bitter!
  10. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    again, awesome post, cryogenic! i can't add anything to it. sadly. :(

    may be i could add that i have felt this way for a long time, that GL is using our perception of the PT in his favor, that he employs our expectations of the inevitable to actually create impossible circumstances for all the participating parties.
  11. OMoT33 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2004
    star 1
    I think this may be some sort of inconsistency, and I've been thinking about it for a while. Ob-wan claims that his battle with vader is over after he has "the high ground." Now, I'm thinking wait a minute, I've seen this before. Obi-wan was hanging from a ledge, no lightsaber, sparks being sprayed on to him, and got lucky by catching Maul off guard.

    Did it ever occur to obi-wan that he is facing a much more powerful character, with a lightsaber, that knew obi-wans every move?
  12. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    I think Obi-Wan was giving Anakin the chance to quit...and maybe baiting him a little bit...
  13. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    Dichotomy #1:

    "The Sith think inwards, only about themselves."
    "And the Jedi don't?"
    "...he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying..."



    And dont forget about "Only Sith think in absolutes", which of course is an absolute statement in itself.

    And Yodas "Do or do not, there is no try". ??? Of course there is a try, its the way things have been done thru out history, :p :p No try, no gain.
  14. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    "Only Sith think in absolutes"

    Not quibbling, and all respect, but the line is
    "only a sith deals in absolutes"
    Now this is open to personal interpretation, but
    I can safely suggest most would say that
    that by deal, Obi Wan means dealing, as in
    to negotiate in extremes, like heavy-handed,
    us or them (think President George W. Bush
    and the coalition of the willing [40 nations
    ready to roll,son!]) rather than a generic,
    abstract view of life.

    Both the Jedi and Sith tend to phrase things
    and behave in absolutes. But, as often stated, the Jedi
    and Sith are alike in almost every single aspect.
  15. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5


    Excellent thread. I've thought about many of these lines myself, but never came up with a good coherent way of making a full thread out of them. I have nothing more to add at this time, but hopefully someone else can point out some more. For all the "Campy" and "Cheesy" Dialog that everyone proclaims has destroyed the Star Wars franchise, there is still a whole lot of great stuff going on that many people don't seem to grasp (Or choose to ignore.)

    Carnage
  16. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Sidious: He was too dangerous to be left alive.

    Mace: He's too dangerous to be kept alive.

    An ample of example of when George Lucas is showing how good and evil can become blurred. You have an evil Tyrant like Sidious saying the exact same line as a good man Mace Windu. Its shows how "good is a point of view" and that murder/killing/execution is always a grey area.

    Its main point however is to do with Anakins conflict. Anakin realises his mistake in killing Dooku and feels bad about it. Then later on he is ok with the idea of Palpatine being arrested, yet Mace wants to kill him. From his own experience and his knowledge of the Jedi way Anakin knows this is wrong. It doesnt matter what spin you put on it, its not the Jedi way.

  17. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    Two moments on board the Invisible Hand -

    Obi-Wan:
    ?You won?t get away this time, Dooku.? *Lights sabre*

    A bit later -
    Grievous:
    ?Your light sabres will make a fine addition to my collection.?
    Obi-Wan:
    ?Not this time. And this time you won?t escape.?

    *They break free and start killing droids*


    With Tyrannus Obi-Wan's prediction was (obviously) right, as Anakin soon kills Dooku.
    Seeing how easily Dooku takes out Obi-Wan, it is apparent Obi-Wan was not in the best position to be making threats [face_mischief].
    When Kenobi makes the same prediction with Grievous, however, he is wrong. Grievous does escape. But, if you take the line less literally, Obi-Wan was right anyway. The line stands because you later find out that Obi-Wan kills Grievous himself.
    I?m a little tired to discern any real meaning from this at the moment.
  18. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    Good post, you've touched on a very important theme in Revenge of the Sith.
    Besides the accurate interpretation you stated, this also relates to the fact that Anakin always trying to do the right thing is a large part of his downfall. He realises what he did with Dooku was wrong, and is ashamed of it, as he knows his wiser Jedi companions wouldn't do the same in that situation.
    Then he sees Mace, a Jedi who he probably looked up to in this respect, doing the exact same thing Anakin did with Dooku! That must have flipped his world upside down. What he thought he knew wasn't true at all, the older Jedi were no more merciful than he was. I know this isn't really true, but from the details Anakin saw, his "realisation" is understandable.


    Cryogenic, not sure if this is the type of dialogue link you were looking for, but here are a few interesting Ep1 - Ep3 ones.

    The Phantom Menace:
    Obi-Wan:
    The boy will not pass the Council's tests, Master. He is too old.
    Qui-Gon:
    Anakin will become a Jedi. I promise you.
    Obi-Wan:
    Do not defy the Council, Master. Not again!
    Qui-Gon:
    I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan.
    Obi-Wan:
    If you would just follow the code you would be on the Council. They will not go along with you this time.
    Qui-Gon:
    You still have much to learn, my young apprentice.

    Revenge of The Sith:
    Anakin:
    What kind of nonsense is this? Put me on the Council and not make me a Master? It's never been done in the history of the Jedi, it's insulting!
    Obi-Wan:
    Oh calm down Anakin, you have been given a great honour. To be on the Council at your age... it's never happened before.

    Look at all the opposites in those two scenes
    Ep1: Obi-Wan lecturing Qui-Gon, pointing out that Qui-Gon is the only Master not on the Council. Basically, he is saying Qui-Gon is unusually old to not be on the Council, and it is because he defies the Council.
    Ep3: Obi-Wan lecturing Anakin, and Anakin complaining that he is the only Council member who isn't a Master. Obi-Wan says not to defy the Council, and mentions that Anakin is unusually young to be on the Council.

    Read what I just said over a couple of times, it is quite cleverly done by Lucas if you think about it.


    The Phantom Menace:
    Obi-Wan:
    Do you think the Queen's idea will work?
    Qui-Gon:
    The Gungans will not be easily swayed. And we cannot use our power to help her.
    Obi-Wan:
    I... I'm sorry for my behaviour Master. It's not my place to disagree with you about the boy.
    And I am grateful you think I am ready to take the trials.
    Qui-Gon:
    You've been a good apprentice Obi-Wan. And you're a much wiser man than I am. I forsee you will become a great Jedi Knight.

    Revenge of the Sith:
    Anakin:
    You're gonna need me on this one Master.
    Obi-Wan:
    Oh, I agree. However, it my just turn out to be a wild Bantha chase.
    Anakin:
    Master... I've dissapointed you. I haven't been very appreciative of your training. I've been arrogant, and I apologise. I've just been so frustrated with the Council.
    Obi-Wan:
    You are strong and wise, Anakin, and I am very proud of you. I have trained you since you were a small boy. I have taught you everything I know. And you have become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be. But be patient, Anakin. It will
  19. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Fascinating stuff!

    Your links obviously go beyond the scope of ROTS, somewhat - but they also tie ROTS more greatly into the saga as a whole. Bravo.

    I definitely feel that Lucas was consciously emulating the Qui Gon/Obi Wan relationship between Obi Wan and Anakin. This gives the prequels a real sense of progression - Obi Wan, once the rebellious and dissenting padawan, is now a great Jedi Master consoling his own former apprentice. A lot of "similar but different" stuff is occuring, however, too. Lucas wants us to look on Obi Wan and Anakin's relationship as we did the former... but to step back and realise it's not the same. For one thing, Obi Wan took on Anakin when he'd only just become a Jedi Knight himself. Secondly, the two of them were both young and inexperienced. Thirdly, Obi Wan has a strong brotherly bond with Anakin that seems to transcend the bond Qui Gon had with him. Fourthly, Obi Wan still tows a Council line - something his former master never did. All of this adds texture to the saga and suggests Anakin's fate may have been very different in the hands of Qui Gon (who, of course, was going to train him before being killed).

    The Palpatine link is also interesting. Did Palpatine actually want Padme to stay on Coruscant and Anakin to leave Obi Wan but then adapted to both situations when they changed? Or was he toying with them all along and knew exactly how they'd react? It's hard to say. Both show what a master manipulator and strategist he really is.
  20. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
  21. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Agreed.

    Nothing that Palpatine says is truthful. Palpatine is the lie and Sidious is the reality. Lucas went to great lengths to preserve this paradigm in all three prequels. I think people underestimate how significant an achievement this is. In an cut scene from AOTC, Palpatine is addressing the Senate and then ends by saying they should reconvene at a better hour; he was being very literal at this moment so it was wise to cut it - but how easy would it have been for Lucas to ruin the paradigm with stuff like this? Then there's the flip side: When Sidious acts surprised and gets wound up in his holographic messages to the Trade Federation in TPM, it has to be real. And when he issues order like "Kill them immediately" in reference to Qui Gon and Obi Wan, that's exactly what he wants the Nemoidians to do - though he's also probably foreseen that he needs Qui Gon to locate Anakin on Tatooine, so might be issuing the order to accelerate the Jedis' move towards Naboo, and ultimately, Tatooine (or not). The line gets blurred a bit in Anakin's pledge scene, however; Palpatine becomes Sidious and continues to lie ("Only then will you be strong enough with the Dark Side to save Padme") but that's because he's threading through a lie he started as, yup... Palpatine. In fact, that's partly why this scene is so odd - Lucas **** with the paradigm. How can Anakin possibly believe that Palpatine is good now that he knows he's a Sith lord and has seen him execute Mace? The answer is in Hayden's performance: Anakin blatantly knows that he's been dealing with a tyrant and it's clear from his face and intonation that he bows out of fear and hopelessness. What fell flat in the cinema actually makes complete sense in hindsight. Anyway, I've gone off course...

    If Sidious occasionally permits himself to lie, Palpatine is a total fabrication and everything out of his mouth is a distortion of some kind. Even when he says, "I shall create a Grand Army of the Republic", he's lying - it's already been created and is ready and waiting. I really can't think of a SINGLE example when he wasn't being deceitful (even a line like, "We shall watch your career with great interest" to Anakin is phoney - he plans to interfere with Anakin's life; not watch it). Man... what a bastard. [face_laugh]

    Luke carries Vader away because he wants to save him; Anakin carries Obi Wan away because Lucas was going for a link and realised he could fashion one for the same reason. Thus, not only do we have a further link between the films, but we have a theme established/reinforced through the link: Sidious uses people as pawns (Obi Wan and Vader are only necessary so that he can get to the senior and junior Skywalkers) and he operates independently of loyalty or compassion. In both cases, we see an innate nobility in Anakin and Luke; they save people that are close to them out of LOVE. Whatever sins they commit
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.