Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Condition2SQ, Feb 11, 2013.
I could have done without Ian's funny faces against Mace, but other than that, I agree.
He was evil right from the get-go.
Exactly. "There is no conflict."
The minds in this place....brilliant I say!!
I agree. Sociopaths' gonna sociopath.
Palpatine literally is an evil emperor in a chair ordering the mass genocide of teddy bears. There is no redemption for that.
no conflict in Sidious. he's totally evil.
I have got to believe the original post is a bit of good-natured, wink-laden trolling... a warm laugh? Too, too funny!
See, the thing is, at least from my point of view, is that in the confrontation with Mace we get to see Sidious for truly what he is. And he's not human. He's been corrupted so much by the Dark Side that he's basically a monster. Kind of like Gollum if he had Force powers and a lightsaber and was ruling the universe. He's unleashing his inner self and he's not acting like a person would be, he's hissing and snarling like a cornered beast. But he's also LOVING every second of it. Sidious is really that damn evil.
Another awesome McDirmid moment in Sith: check out his reaction shot when Yoda tosses the senate chamber platform at him. It's literally two seconds, a quick pan/zoom in, and Sidious is smiling, wiping his mouth, and he stops himself and tilts his head sideways, smile still frozen on his face, kind of like, "Huh, that little green guy just Force threw something large right at my head." Makes me laugh every time, really great. The camera movement kinda sells it for me.
Never saw it that way.
Anyone can be redeemable . . . if they took the opportunity to set upon that road. Palpatine simply did not bother. I suspect that he did not consider himself as evil.
Being corrupted is human. Being monstrous is also human. Why do humans continue to believe that their inherent nature is basically good, when it isn't? Why is it when an individual or fictional character commits monstrous acts, they are labeled as "inhuman"?
He's not the evil emperor, he's a very naughty boy.
Palpatine was irredeemable, end of story. Ian McDiarmid, the actor, said that himself. Here's the full quote, from a TFN article.
The latest official site Homing Beacon newsletter has some great new info on the character of Palpatine in ROTS. Here's a clip to encourage you to subscribe:
"He has a black irredeemable heart," McDiarmid says of Palpatine.
"There's nothing that can be said about him that's good. When we first
saw Vader in the original trilogy we thought he was the heart of
darkness, and nobody could be darker. But now we understand what
happened to him. And one of the exciting things about seeing this movie
is that you can follow Vader through Anakin's journey every step of the
way even if you don't agree with the choices he's making. In partm his
decisions stem from his traumatic childhood, and his impatient lust for
power. And it's that which my character takes and then uses again him."
"When you're playing a character of solid blackness, that in itself is
very interesting, in the sense that you have no other motivation other
than the accumulation of power," McDiarmid continues. "It's not so much
about not having a moral center, it's just that the only thing that
mattered is increasing power."
Yet even though Palpatine represents a truly evil character, McDiarmid
still attempted to seek out his human side, however faint it may
From Life of Brian - 'He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy'.
One of the funniest films ever, check it out.
He's not such a bad guy. A little vindictive, but that's understandable. Freddie did break his VHS player, after all.
That kinda ruins the point of ROTJ which was that everyone can be redeemed (and redeem himself). Palps is no worse than Vader.
The Emperor is the most evil son-of-a-bitch in the Galaxy far, far away. The only conflict he has is whether to kick a puppy or a kitten in the morning.*
He kicks both.
The only time Palpatine was ever a sad character is in the early part of the Plagueis novel when he was an idealistic college student, and even then it didn't last very long.
Nope. There was no possible redemption for the Emperor. He was evil and loved it. For the sake of being evil and powerful. The only conflict he had was what to do with the rebels and who would be Vader's successor. That's what makes his character so great.
Then you obviously missed the message the finale of ROTJ was meant to convey. In ANH Vader was "irredeemably" evil as well, choking people to death, torturing a girl and standing by while a planet is destroyed. It's obvious he is enjoying being evil. Obi-Wan even said "he is more machine than man now, twisted and evil.". The end of ROTJ was supposed to show the error of this train of thought.
When someone as ANH Vader can be redeemed, then there must be at least a remote chance to redeem Palpatine as well. I'm not saying it is easy at all (quite the opposite) but it is possible in the SW-universe.
Note also how Luke throws away his saber in ROTJ. He doesn't want to fight, he rejects the inherent violence in fighting (the novelization makes that pretty clear) because he understands that he doesn't hate the followers of the dark side but the dark side itself. And the dark side itself can't be vanquished by violence, only by compassion. This line of thought is reflected by Yodas words: "A jedi uses the force for defense, never for aggression" (or similar). That is, why, imo, ROTJ has one of the greatest movie endings ever. Period. It is not classical "kill the baddie" but far more.
Vader could be redeemed because he still had good in him. He had guilt. He turned to the darkside out of desperation and misguided dreams to make the galaxy a better place. As early as ROTS, Anakin shed a tear on Mustafar. Quoted from the Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.
"After killing all the Separatist leaders, Palpatine's new apprentice had stepped outside the mountain fortress on Mustafar to gaze at the blazing lava rivers below. He would not mourn for the lives he had taken. But for the loss of his former self, the boy who had dreamed of becoming a Jedi, he was unable to hold back the tears that streamed down his cheeks. Anakin Skywalker was gone. Or was he? After all, Padme had fallen in love with Anakin, not Darth Vader."
He had a repressed desire to be good again, and Luke helped him awaken that good. Palpatine, on the other hand, represents pure evil and the devil. Even George Lucas himself said that.
Almost any villain has a sob story or at least a reason for turning bad. How do you know Palpatine wasn't constantly beaten by his dad? You don't. The only reason why people get so apologist when it comes to Vader is because we know the whole story. Personally it annoys me. It is an insult to what Lord Vader is to imply he was made a Sith exclusively by "outside forces". He chose darkness. He is a bad man. A through and through villain.
In ANH and even in TESB, Vader was as nasty as it gets. Not even a hint of good aside from some possessiveness. If someone like him can be redeemed, has "enough" good in him to turn to the light, then in theory it should be possible to turn Palpatine as well.
Yea, and maybe Palpatine cried too in his chamber.
You underestimate how it is in the empire. For Vader, treachery is a natural part of life. Nobody can trust anybody. If you ever show the slightest weakness, a knife is stuck into your back and you are killed mercilessly. Vader is a shark in a pool of sharks.
I checked it out on Wookipedia, and it seems like Palpatine's negative relationship with his family was related to his turn to the darkside.
Nah, I mean that from my point of view, the Dark Side has corrupted Palpatine so much that it actually changes his biology and becomes a different, twisted monstorus life form. Like the way he talks when he knights Anakin, his physical appearance, movement, etc. Like Gollum. Guy was a Hobbit then he, y'know, wasn't. You could say that Palpy / Gollum are the same species they always were when the started out but I take it as they are so destroyed by darkness is alters them physically into a different species.