Iraq: Moving forward after the 'Three Week's War'.

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Red-Seven, Apr 24, 2003.

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  1. beezel26 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2003
    star 7

    who cares about some people. its the victims that deserve justice. cant you see that. Or is the death of an innocent person just another death in this world.


    you have the attitude of the pharisees in Jesus times,

    you strain out the nat but swallow the camel

  2. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    You're really not getting this concept and sadly I do not deal with kooks. So have fun in bizzarroland.
  3. Shadow_of_Evil Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2001
    star 6
    Death is the only sentence that would show strength.

    [face_tired] Well that attitude has cause for concern.

    its the victims that deserve justice

    Tell me, how does killng someone bring about justice?
    If this is your philosophy then surely Bush she be hanged right? I mean how many have died as the result of his orders?
    If you heard people in the streets of the US (possibly those who've lost family in Iraq) calling out for the execution of Bush then you'd probably think they were crazy...amd I right here?
  4. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    i just made this point in the other thread, but I'm of the understanding that the Pharisees were the ones calling for the stoning of the prostitute, and Jesus was the one who STOPPED the execution.



    P.S. We won now, right?
  5. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    That's what I don't deal with kooks.
  6. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Oh, lordy lordy lord. The "I have no factual basis for my argument but I feel strongly and to prove how evil I think Saddam was, I'll throw a wholly useless but emotionally stirring reference to Hitler in there, just I create the impression my argument is valid when in actuality, not so much." =D=

    FIDo is actually far closer to a sensible argument so instead of witless and useless appeals to the Nazis, you should try listening to him. Saddam, like so many dictators, suffered delusions of grandeur. Stripping him of anything resembling a public profile and "forgetting about him" would have been far more effective. Especially since you insist on using these frankly silly notions of justice.

    There's no justice for Saddam's victims. The Kurds will only matter to people who can drag them out to make a point - "Teh kurds suffered under Saddam, I know heaps about teh Kurds and lub them and... what? We're going to war! So long, Kurds! Back to the pile of forgotten, downtrodden people you go!"

    And of course, the notion of this petty tit-for-tat justice is a huge issue in Iraq right now. Not that, of course, you're really aware of this, nor are you intentionally supporting the sectarian violence - it's just a biproduct of being casually familiar with Arab politics but nevertheless having a "right" to speak your mind on the subject.

    But basically, Sunni muslims are scared that Shi'a and Kurdish groups will pursue this idiotic "justice" concept against them, on account of being the ruling minority during Saddam's reign. This prevents them from trusting and engaging in government, but that's hardly important since people like beezel can be happy that such just justice has been served on Saddam, a man nowhere near as important, threatening, or dangerous as your media made him out to be.

    Frankly, dredging up the past like this, by parading Saddam's sham trial and execution about, doesn't help Iraq move forward. It just reminds them of the past. If Iraq's going to move forward, that's the last thing they need.

    E_S
  7. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
  8. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    That's right, son. We won. Let's cling to that happy memory because it was the last time the victory was longlasting, and not phyrric. ;)

    E_S
  9. beezel26 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2003
    star 7
    Thanks for calling me a kook, Its a real damn shame you dont even have the capacity to understand what I wrote in the first place.

    The point I was trying to make is Jesus was telling the pharisees to stop straining out the little things but letting the big things by.

    you dont seem to care that thousands of people were killed in a gruesome way by saddam but your willing to call us barbarians and the victims families barbarians for wanting some justice and wanting him dead. and then by stating that a few people might look at him as a martyr. thats small potatoes compared to his actions.


    I can understand being against the death penalty in most countries but dictators who kill thousands and rape and commit all sorts of atrocities in the name of sheer fun just need to die.
    Sorry but thinking that a little prison time will take care of them is the really kooky.

    I mean really do you think Hitler deserved a little prison time. He murderer six million jews, hundred of thousands gypsys, russians, prisoners, homosexuals, jehovah witnesses, and starting a war on top of it deserved a nice prison sentence somewhere in a cushy club med prison in the EU.


    please answer the question, Do you honestly think the holocaust was a figment of imagination designed to scare little jewish kids so they wouldnt do anything wrong.

    and if you dont want to answer the question then you know I am right and thats the end of the discussion.

  10. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Dammit Beezel have some gorram respect. The Holocaust was an intended plan to kill an entire group. Gassing Kurds was done to quell uprisings. A few thousand died in the Gulf Wars, tens of millions died as a result of the Nazi war machine.

    I mean, for ****'s sake, get some perspective and do some gorram research because frankly, I'm tired of these superficial comparisons. Actually knowing what you're talking about isn't a sin, you know? Really, it's not and nor is ignorance bliss.

    It's just such a stupid, cretinous thing to do, to compare the two. It says, I don't know what I'm talking about but the media and the Gubernment says I have to hate this man so being the dutiful ovine masses we are, we now hate Saddam! He killed Jebus! Booo!

    Like I said in YJCC, Saddam is the diet cola of evil. Only 1 calorie, not evil enough. Please, do some research, get an original thought, and then express it. it's liberating!

    E_S
  11. Shadow_of_Evil Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2001
    star 6
    but your willing to call us barbarians and the victims families barbarians for wanting some justice and wanting him dead.

    Who called who babarians? Then again you're the same person who said "Death is the only sentence that would show strength"


    Sorry but thinking that a little prison time will take care of them is the really kooky.

    A little prison time? Who said he should get a LITTLE prison time?
  12. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    J-Rod, you may have noticed all but once civilised state still executes people - the US maintains such delightful company as the People's Republic of China, Somalia, Saudi Arabia et al in still barbarically executing people. The state has no right over a person's life. All but America of the civlised world recognises this.


    Since you're so fond of pointing out people should be aware about local customs and politics before they open their mouth, I should point out that the US has no authority to ban the death penalty. The criminal justice system of each state is a reserved power constitutionally granted to each state by the Constitution.

    Oh, and you're using the association fallacy again.
  13. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    What the crap? Are you not going to be happy until you've chased every single person out of the Senate? Last I checked, this is still a discussion board. I thought it was a cheap shot to throw Berg into a different person's face in the other thread, but that was the JCC. I'm quite certain that the behavior shown in this forum isn't something we want to move the Senate in the direction of, at least I thought it wasn't.

    I don't know why you're taking this so personally, but it doesn't make sense.
  14. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Thanks for calling me a kook, Its a real damn shame you dont even have the capacity to understand what I wrote in the first place.

    Actually I do, and it sounds kooky. And spooky. And altogether ooky.

    The point I was trying to make is Jesus was telling the pharisees to stop straining out the little things but letting the big things by.

    And you still managed to mangle your point. This is why you should never try to use religious allusions while debating murder and whatnot because you'll be playing the fool in that case. Good job, you played it well.

    you dont seem to care that thousands of people were killed in a gruesome way by saddam but your willing to call us barbarians and the victims families barbarians for wanting some justice and wanting him dead. and then by stating that a few people might look at him as a martyr. thats small potatoes compared to his actions.

    1) I never called you a barbarian. I called you and those that share your view kooks. And given how you've responded here tonight I'm right. 2) This isn't a matter of not caring, but it is a matter of what's just. Death for death is never just. All you end up doing is going in cycles which solves nothing. Or have you learned nothing of history (you seem to like mentioning it a lot). 3) Using emotive arguments to dictate what is justice is exactly what you should not use when arguing your point.

    I can understand being against the death penalty in most countries but dictators who kill thousands and rape and commit all sorts of atrocities in the name of sheer fun just need to die.

    What makes you think that dictators are anything special? Sheesh that's one of the most asinine things I've ever read. I've heard of serial killers that do ten times worse. Hell, the Manson 'family' did a lot worse than Saddam could ever have done and they're still alive.

    Sorry but thinking that a little prison time will take care of them is the really kooky.

    What part of 'fade from existence' did you not grasp? Was it the fading part? Okay, to fade is to disappear. To disappear is to never be seen again. So, a 'little jail time' is a ridiculous distortion on your part.

    I mean really do you think Hitler deserved a little prison time. He murderer six million jews, hundred of thousands gypsys, russians, prisoners, homosexuals, jehovah witnesses, and starting a war on top of it deserved a nice prison sentence somewhere in a cushy club med prison in the EU.

    Right, keep on believing that chummy boy. You're really good at missing the point. I believe there should be some sort of award. Here it is [image=http://www.petridish.net/pics/24453/missing.gif]

    please answer the question, Do you honestly think the holocaust was a figment of imagination designed to scare little jewish kids so they wouldnt do anything wrong.

    *sigh* Really stupid question here: Yes I do believe the holocaust happened, no I don't think it was made up. Yes you are trying to use emotive arguments, trickery, and all sorts of bad things. No your point makes no sense. Yes you should stop using emotive arguments. No, really never bring up the holocaust again. Yes it has nothing to do with what we're discussing!

    and if you dont want to answer the question then you know I am right and thats the end of the discussion.

    [face_laugh] You're really bad at this.
  15. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    How about everyone stops with the sarcasm, and simply focuses on the topic? One of the Senate's tenets is still to focus on the discussion, not the person.
  16. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    Beezel26

    They really don't like comparing history in the Senate, historical references are valid from my POV, but some others think we can't separate the emotion from the event.

    But once again those that can't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    Anyways I certainly understand what you are saying comparing Hitler and Saddam.
  17. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    There's learning from history and then there's using history for cheap emotive arguments. What you and beezel do is use them for cheap emotive arguments rather than using it as a lesson to be learned from.
  18. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    What is a "cheap emotive arguement" to some is a valid historical comparison to others, it all depends on how much you value what we can learn from other human experiences from the past, or do we depend only on our own personal intellectual ability in our current bubble in time.
  19. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Hmm...no, you're wrong. Wow, that was easy.
  20. _Darth_Poodoo_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 1
    We've got way too many ego-trippers in here.

    [face_beatup]
  21. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    No, his argument was crap so he's wrong.
  22. _Darth_Poodoo_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 1
    Perhaps, but your assertion of this supposed *fact* is inappropriate in a discussion board such as this one, unless you can rationally explain *why* it is wrong.

    "No, his argument was crap so he's wrong" is not a valid argument.
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