PT Irreplaceable things the prequels gave to the Star Wars Franchise.

I don't believe there's an equation that defines a direct relationship between the years passed and the extent or nature of the evolution of the aesthetics or the capabilities of military hardware.

You've got to look at the circumstances of the Resistance and the FO existing in the first place. The FO is the resurgence of an Imperial ideology. Not the evolution of the Empire. In being out on a limb and confronting this resurgent ideology, it follows that the Resistance too should be as mired in the culture of their predecessors, the traditional opponents to those Imperialist forces, as the FO are devoted to the culture of the Empire. That includes repeating the same mistakes, like putting all your eggs in one basket and building superweapons, training creeps to become Jedi.

It remains to be seen just how the New Republic has come along in the past thirty years. The glimpse that we get was tantalisingly reminiscent of PT era Coruscant. But since it got obliterated there seems to be a point being made. Perhaps that the New Republic is similarly conservative and is misguidedly attempting to sustain an idealised vision of the past. Which also explains its reluctance to be officially drawn into conflict again (look where the Clone wars lead them). A policy which has tragically failed for the citizens of the Hosnian system. The similarities in the rhetoric of the FO and the way that appeasement was exploited by the aggressors in the second world war suggests to mthat this may all be leading to a lesson in how an aroused democracy responds to aggression and tyranny. When that happens, things change and evolve very quickly. Including culture.

That means that literally transposing conspicuously familiar 20th century earth culture into Star Wars was permissible as a "new take" because the New Weird movement did it too. But anything that looks too similar to something in a previous Star Wars movie is unoriginal, regardless of the story imperative.

 

Not literal, as real diners don't have aliens and robots behind the counter. Other then than, I don't see what's wrong with the view you describe. We're talking a few scenes of background flavor vs. a major plot point and design philosophy. If TFA had Rey renting a Luke and Han movie at Star Wars blockbuster, I would've praised the film accordingly. If the film had something instead of TIES, or more importantly, a main threat I didn't see as both repetitive and caricatured to the point that TFA often felt like a parody, I would've praised it accordingly.

 

By their own admission of wanting to recapture the feels of the original Star Wars movies, the writers were the only people putting those limits on themselves

 

But you told me earlier that being immersed in the world building, and presumably authentic world building,
was important to appreciating the story. Now you're saying it's just flavour.

Would you approve of if Rey watched this rented movie on a VHS machine? Or watched it on a fifties style tv set with a rabbit ear aerial? How is aliens running a replica fifties diner with a sassy waitressbot not a parody? How does a bunch of imperial wannabes emulating Imperial weapons constitute a parody?

 

Stolen data tapes.

 

Blu-Rey.

 

Plus that set gave us some hilarious BTS pics...


But what would really make my day is a Han Solo movie BTS pic, with Ron Howard as George Lucas sitting under the bar, while Alden Ehrenreich looks miserable at a table.

 

Did I mention Padme's costumes? All of it.

 

C-3PO really picked out some great evening wear.

 

He's good with fabrics.

 

Droid Eye for Royalty High.

 

I thought this would go without saying but apparently not: there are larger and smaller aspects that combine to form the oftentimes patchwork whole I would describe as world-building. Dex's diner is a smaller daily life snippet. The Jedi temple and senate building are larger pieces that feature more heavily into the main arc and its dramatic peaks. I wouldn't call Dex's place a parody, but a reference to Lucas's earlier work. I like that earlier work, so I like the reference. And even if I didn't it likely wouldn't be that distracting to me since it is a smaller "flavor" scene. Now if the main threat of the PT was a band of dudes obsessed with 50s Americana, I admit I might have a different take (might, as that honesty sounds more interesting to me than TFA's First Order). You're right that TFA doesn't literally "constitute a parody," but unfortunately much of the film gives me a Space Balls vibe even though its depictions are meant to be taken seriously.

I would have to see Rey and the 50s set before I made my decision on your hypothetical. Might be pretty cool if they Star Warsify the name of the device.

 

TFA - Parody - Spaceballs.

Luke: What's your name?
Rey: Rey
Luke: Heh. That's awfully close to my #1 enemy. Ren. My nephew serves as one of Ren's knights now.
Rey: You mean Snoke?
Luke: Snoke is just Ren's butler.
Rey: You mean he is worse than Snoke?
Luke: Infinitely. And it is she, not he.
Rey: ....
Luke: So who are your parents?
Rey: Don't know. Never knew them. My godfather then abandoned me on Jakuu. Can barely remember them. I just have this note they left me. That's how I know my name is Rey.
Luke: Hmm. This letter has some space dust. <blows space dust off letter>
Luke turns pale and starts to force choke Rey
Luke: That letter doesn't say Dear Rey. It says Dear Ren.
Tune in next week. Same bat channel. Same bat time.

 

Watto. One of my fav. SW characters. I especially liked when he said "he's a credit to your race".

The prequels had hundreds of complimentary lines infact that showed the underlying sophisticated times before the Empire.

For example: " Perhaps merely with your presence, the mysteries surrounding this threat will be revealed". We had a thread already with the "best lines" in the Prequels but it must be said the Prequels have indeed complemented (note this is a different word) the Saga and I certainly will not forget how much better the Saga is with it.

MJ

 

No it doesn't go without saying. You define the design of FO weapons as a parody because they aren't different enough from the Imperials for your liking yet pretending that arbitrarily having 1962 Modesto and 2000s Tokyo exist in Coruscant isn't noticeable because they are only smaller, "flavour" scenes. When you've got such peculiar and counterintuitive definitions of parody and world building, assume that you have to explain them to the rest of us.

 

You, not "us." No one else here has a problem with my definition of world building. And actually the First Order primarily feels like a parody to me because of the writing and performances. The aesthetic is merely one problem of several I have with the overall execution of TFA. I do admit there's every chance I would've been more accepting of a return to the whole rebels vs. Empire route under a different creative team even if it's not my preferred starting point.

As a side note, you are the first person I've ever seen that specifically cites the AOTC club as looking like something from Tokyo. Fascinating. Perhaps that's where Lucas took direct inspiration. Regardless, he could've taken direct inspiration from McDonald's or Pizza Hut and by nature of the scene's length it wouldn't factor into my overall appreciation of the movie compared to something as crucial as the main villains. The notion that I should appreciate the First Order, the Resistance and all their various creative components just because I appreciate two locations only used briefly in a different film is ludicrous and preposterous, to borrow some words from you.

 

You assume, just because it's only me that is discussing it with you. You're definitions of world building and parody are entirely peculiar to you. So it's safer not to assume that it "goes without saying" that people intuit your idiosyncratic use of the words parody or world building. There are enough wildly variant claims on what world building actually is in this very thread to prevent anyone from making assumptions.

You also stated the world building in TFA was a parody when we were talking about the design of some of "world" of Coruscant. Then backpedalled to say that you don't like the world building of TFA because as a film it's a parody.

So your definitions of parody and parodic world building seem to flip and flop depending on the perverse logic that you are need to explain.

No disrespect but this is, as I suspected, heading toward a purely PT vs OT and or TFA defence. Which is not what this thread needs or is about

I pointed out two factors in AOTC which I thought were conspicuously at odds with a somewhat popular type of veneration of the kind of world building that the PT is supposedly defined by.

I can appreciate Lucas's decision to arbitrarily or even just sentimentally impose two of his favourite things, one from his childhood and the other an aspect of his fascination with Japanese culture, but which have no universe logic for their design in that manner.

I don't have any truck with supposedly proscribed ways of bringing a good Star Wars movie to the screen. They could be sitting at bus shelter reading the Metro newspaper for all I care, as long as it works telling the story. That way, I don't have to tie myself in knots with perverse logic and double talk (or need to move the goalposts by going on about the writing and the villains) when it's pointed out that they are at odds with some overarching, unnecessary and faintly pretentious superlatives that people apply like a blanket to certain films or groups of films.

Really? Lucas himself pointed it out. But it's not really a subtle thing you'd have to . In fact they (combined Sports bar/Video arcade) were starting to open up here in Scotland by that time.

Even the signage outside the place with the animated faces comes direct from Tokyo (via Blade Runner).

 

No, I stated that the main threat of TFA felt like a parody. My original point in bringing "parody" into the conversation was that repetitive designs like TIE fighters and Star Destroyers would've been much less of an issue for me if the writing and performances of First Order characters were more on point. And before that I stated that hardware design is a part of what comprises world building. You specifically asked me what I thought about the First Order/Resistance concept, so I told you.

If you want to compare Dex's diner and the Coruscant club to a TFA equivalent, I'm not sure why didn't ask me about that film's cantina.

 

You're being completely disingenuous now. You're argument was that a fifties diner and a tokyo sports bar are defensible flavours in the context of world building while the Tie Fighters were a parody. You only mentioned the threat of the villain as an aside (which was almost a non-sequitur) to our discussion of designs. It's clear that you simply wanted to sling mud at TFA in our argument about Dex's Diner and the Tokyo Sports Bar. Neither of which I have a problem with, by the way, except in the context of such blanket superlatives that do nobody any favour.s

Like I said.

There are threads where you can make complaints about the validity of the villain in TFA as you see it. They have nothing to do with what we're discussing in this thread though.

 

You specifically asked me about TFA. Otherwise I wouldn't have brought up that film at all in this thread.

My argument was that I see no need to defend the design choices of the AOTC establishments. They fit in fine with what I consider to be good world building. Sure, they were not entirely new concepts by themselves, but they brought a new angle to Star Wars that I appreciated. As I said before, sometimes a dose of mundane reality livens up the fantasy. Similarly, too much of the same fantasy can become normal and a bit boring.

 

I actually really appreciated learning that Lucas told his artist not to copy what McQuarrie did for the originals and basically told them to look outside of SW to build something new instead of just being self-referential just because they feared it would not look starwarsy enough. To look at old movies or History and foreign cultures, that's what I especially loved about it. You could see those influences everywhere from the designs of the ships/droids/aliens/planets to the costumes.

 

No I gave you an example of design in TFA and you started going on about the threat of the FO.

 

And people say Lucas was being too tame and safe, and only thinking about easy ways to maximize revenue... He owned the biggest money maker in existence, and instead of rehashing it the obvious way, he decided to follow his artistic instincts and take a huge gamble by moving it forward to new and unknown territories. After all, Lucas is one of the most important filmmaking visionaries of all time, while Mr. Abrahams is... well...

 

Because it was relevant to my personal view of world building and its component parts.

 

That's an interesting interpretation. I disagree with it.

However, that's not really the topic. Let me add my 2 pence as to what the PT added that I now consider indispensable to Star Wars..

Coruscant - Dexter's diner aside, I love that imagining of the Imperial capital.
Maul - Although I think TPM is the weakest Star Wars movie, Maul is still awesome.
Jedi - whatever my quibbles with the details, I love seeing all those Jedi.
Palps - hated the Ep III make-up, but who cares. He's delicious.
Dooku - Chris Lee is awesome, and I loved the idea of a more genteel Sith Lord.

Whatever my criticisms of the PT, I think it's an important part of the story now. And I still go back and watch those movies, warts and all. It's Star Wars, after all.