IRS & Taxes: Unconstitutional?

Today in the USA we have income taxes, Social Security taxes, estate taxes, inheritance taxes, etc.,etc.,etc...

Could these taxes be unconstitutional?

The Constitution, in Article I, Section 8, gives Congress the power "to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States."

In Article I, Section 9, the original document made clear that "no Capitation, or other direct Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census of Enumeration herein before directed to be taken." It is moreover established that "No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State."

Sure, you could argue that our income tax, social security tax, etc are being used for the general Welfare of the United States, but you've heard those horror stories of what our tax money is being used for.

The only legitimate purpose of civil government is to safeguard the God-given rights of its citizens; namely, life, liberty, and property. Only those duties, functions, and programs specifically assigned to the federal government by the Constitution should be funded.

I think we should, and I'm sure our founding fathers would be, outraged at the number of federal taxes laid uppon us.

Has our government gotten so fat that we are paying unconstitutional taxes? I don't think we should grab our guns and go to war, but isn't this what our founding fathers revolted against?

 

Taxes are a necessary evil, but they are way too high for wasteful government spending on useless social programs.

30% of your income goes to the government. That to me is a tad rediculous.

 

And that's just us poor guys

 

Speaking of "us poor guys" I wonder why it is the poor generally support political groups that offer them more federal aid by raising their taxes? The only "poor guys" that benifits are those not paying taxes.

Anyways, I think its amazing that most people have no idea where their money goes. I don't know if its apathy or just not being well informed, but its outrageous.

 

I must admit, Tax in the US does suck. You have Federal, State and County Tax (in my area at least) - and what do I get for the thousands I pay ? absolutely nothing. Well, I suppose we are paying for the infrastructure.........paying the senators to make the rules, and the Police to enforce them. Keeps everyone and their property safe.

But I want MORE !

Other countries seems to be managing their taxes better than the US. In the UK health care and education are free (infact, I got paid to go to University - albeit a small amount of money). Argueably the UK has one of the best education systems in the world - however the National Health Service is lacking in certain areas.

Oh, and I don't get to vote in the US (cause I'm an alien) so I pay taxes and don't get a say

I think the government should be forced to publish exactly how the spend the taxes they get. Not some huge 5,000 page document, I mean something that you and I could read with ease - that might scare them into spending our money properly.

malkie

edit: oh, and those tax returns don't make any sense in the UK they take a percentage of your earns every month - thats it. No forms, no returns.

I should be careful what I say, or the INS might be knocking on my door tonight

 

Has our government gotten so fat that we are paying unconstitutional taxes?

Simple answer. Yes.

Long answer.

Taxes are necessary so the people in government can be compensated for their work. I'll concede that some help is required at times but the welfare state the United States has become is WAY over the line. It really ticks me off that my taxes go to lazy people that refuse to get off their butts to help themselves. It also annoys the hell out of me that a lot of our money goes to other countries. The United States should be about helping our citizens first and then helping other countries. This has gotten way out of hand. Sooner or later, the government is going to push this incrementalism approach too far and the tax payers are going to say enough is enough. I just hope the American public isn't dumbed down to the point to where nothing can be done.

 

tax me amadeus.

 

Oh, this thread has me going..I think I'll call my congressmen and tell them to support the Liberty Amendment, which would repeal the Sixteenth Amendment.

 

Amendment XVI (1913)

The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source devrived, without apportionment among the several States and without regard to any census or enumeration

So basically they can take taxes from any form of income. Orginally there was no annual income tax because there was the fear of overtaxation (See Revolutionary War...) but as the government grew...so did taxes.

 

Our taxes are still much lower than they are in many other civilized countries. Remember the Beatles' "Taxman"?

Let me tell you how it will be...
It's one for you, nineteen for me...

 

Taxes are the governments crack. It's never enough, you've always gotta go higher .

Taxes aren't unconstitutional. And if you need any help at tax-time malkie I'll be glad to help, just PM me, I do taxes for a living so it all makes perfect sense to me.

 

Anyone walking off the boat from a "politically distressed" nation can get free education, food, medical care and various other sundries while the average American Born citizen pays for the refugees' care and has to hock everything HE has to walk into a hospital for medical care for his own needs! It seems it's better to expatriate oneself then return as a refugee to get the care he paid for to begin with!
As far as taxes being a necessary evil...why not user fees instead! I much prefer driving on my toll roads than the common interstate that everyone has free access to via taxes.
Taxes are only constitutional because they passed an amendment (16th) making it so....Well, they also passed an amendment prohibiting the production, distribution, and consumption of alcohol (spirits really...not beer, even though brewmeisters were arrested too...more government out of control!)...and they repealed that one.The Fed Taxes are perceived as "necessary evils" because everyone's forgotten the role of The Federal Government...To provide for the common defense and promote ( NOT PAY FOR) the general welfare!The states need to take back more of their state sovereignty!

-Axe Tredway

 

But there are some things that very few people could pay for when they have to. Health care is an example. Although very overpriced, some of it is honestly expensive. Many people, especally those just making ends meet obviously cant pay for it when they need it. How should they pay for what they need then?

I think that the government should look at all it provides, and see if it is a special situation like medicen, or if it is something people should take care of themselves. After that is figured out, cut everything that can and olny tax for what is needed.

 

Enforcer,
Still...NOT the government's job...The money people earn is THEIR MONEY and if people had the money that the Federal government stole/steals from them to the tune of 14-50% of their total income + the taxes that are hidden in the cost of goods and services they purchase(How many Americans really believe they are paying less in taxes than Europeans?!) then they would have enough money to allocate for health care expenses! The money that takes the round trip to Washington before people can use it on medical care becomes even more exorbitant that way you propose. In addition, how about the fact that money being taxed on working Americans, allegedly to go for one's own use in the future is actually being spent today on people no longer working...who have already exhausted their "pool" because people are just living longer? The medicare portion of YOUR taxes isn't some kind of savings fund that the government squirrels away for when you retire....It all goes into one giant Ponzi scheme, which if corporations worked that way would be indicted for fraud!

 

Oh sorry, my bad. I was thinking health care was sponsered by the government. Sorry about that.

 

30% has you complaining? You can pay up to 48% here, and you should have a look at what some Europeans have to pay - 50% or more!

E_S

 

"Taxes as a neccesary evil" is something i can agree with partially. But, government should be small and efficient. and not the massive bloated beast it is now.
the first income tax wa to support WWI, and it never ended.

Taxes should fluxuate year to year with the economy, and should never surpass 10% for more then 5 years in a row. in a downturn then taxes should be low to free up spending money to speed up the economy. and when the economy is rising to fast them taxes shiould be higher to result in less spending money to slow the economy.

When it comes to Social Security, i have no problem with SS, but with Baby boomers reaching retirment age then there will be less and less paying for more people. but general welfare should be severly limited. now, people should b e on welfare no more then 6 months. otherwise they are simply a drag on the system. and at that point they simply become lazy slobs that live off another.

Because the government keeps raising taxes then it thinks it never has to give back and can just grow and keep demeanding more of the people. personally i dont mind public lands, national parks, and interstate highways, but so much of our government is waste.

 

Congress passed an Income Tax bill several times and it was ruled unconstitutional by the US SUPREME COURT, which is why they had to amend the constitution to allow an Income Tax.

Make no mistake, the Income Tax amendment was the democrats biggest piece of legislation last century, more so then civil rights or anything else.

 

You want to maintain the most powerful military in the world? You want to maintain one of the highest qualities of life in the world? Then pay your bloody taxes, or don't complain when you end up a backwater nation with a tiny military, no emergency health care, no welfare whatsoever, dilapidated roads and public buildings, no social programs, no lawmakers, and nobody to enforce them.

Instead of trying to repeal Amendment XVI, why not petition your Government to cut back so much on defence spending? I thought not.

- TSB.

 

the truth is that it is neseccary for a governmet to collect some form of taxes. if taxes where done properly and kept low, and then government kept small and efficent we would not need massive taxes.

 

We are the United States of America.

More of the burdern should be put on the local state governments. This nation was not meant to have a strong, fat central government.

Our nation was doing just fine until 1913 when the 16th Amendment was passed. It actually was going to be removed after the war. Never happend.

Cut military spending? Nah, how about we cut out all that pork that is attached to your blessed social programs.

 

Cut military spending? Nah, how about we cut out all that pork that is attached to your blessed social programs.

It's very telling of the Republican attitude that you would prefer to keep the current defence spending and let thousands of people sink into poverty and disease, then cut back on ludicrously high spending and save money.

That's real smart. End social programs and kill people. How is it that people of the so-called moral party are often the least moral people around?

Wait. No. It wasn't moral. It was greedy.

- TSB.

 

That's real smart. End social programs and kill people. How is it that people of the so-called moral party are often the least moral people around?

lol

Ok, I said how about cutting the pork thats on all your blessed social programs

Know what pork is? Pork is this stuff that if we knew our Congress was passing it we'd be outraged.

So they pick a bill like social security reform, add a bunch of programs, studies, spending etc that have nothing to do with the bill and try to pass it.

Depending on whos pork it is the other side will try to kill the bill. Of course the proponets of the bill will say the other side is being insensitive or doesn't care about this issue.

Neither side mentions the pork because both Republicans and Democrats do it.

A perfect example was a certain un-named democratic leader from South Dakota had pork attatched to a bill that would do a study on chicken poop and how it affects the enviroment.

 

I have read in this thread of taxes being a "necessary evil" and that we resign ourselves to being a "third world country without them". There are arguments over what to "cut back on" and surmised "outrages" over what we would "give up" if we did so...But remember one thing: GOVERNMENT IS AN INSTRUMENT OF FORCE!...and when you invoke government to do your bidding you invoke force...nothing more...nothing less! Even the best intended "programs and initiatives" will look nothing like what you propose once government gets in the middle...ANY GOVERNMENT...no matter how seemingly benign...you are invoking force.And when you employ force...you are diminishing freedom...one step at a time. I'm not a smoker, but when they passed Amendment6 in the State of Florida they also potentially set precedence for other things as well. We have to be careful of what we ratify in limiting our freedoms because before you know it, there will be a law limiting flatulence!

P.S. Ender, As I stated earlier, Americans already pay as much as Europeans..It's hidden in the costs of goods and services we purchase...especially in goods we purchase (like beer) from abroad. We also pay for it in terms of our time working...We only average 1.5 weeks per year in paid vacation in this country vs. 3 to 6 weeks per year in modern European Nations. We work longer but not necessarily harder in this country....but that's another isssue. The bottom line is that we have more immediate access to more goods and services than any other nation in the world but we still pay as much when all factors are accounted for....Even accounting for "small freedoms". For example: You can bring a bottle of wine to your picnic in the park but if you tried that here you would be arrested for bringing alcohol into a public park. It's assumed that we are just not as "mature" as our European bretheren!

 

They passed the 13th Amendment to The Constitution to end slavery only to ratify the 16th Amendment to enslave us all! Remeber: Fedral taxes were originally instituted to "punish the rich", redistribute some of the wealth- and look where that got us!...The rich found loopholes called "corporations" and "off-shore grantor trusts" while the middle class was left holding the bag! Don't let the tax issue become a war over rich vs. poor. See where economic jealousy got us?!
P.S.Enforcer, You have to admit that getting the government from stealing a large portion of our daily income is a good place to start, especially for those families who can't afford health care right now? Maybe employers would be able to afford more workers so that more people aren't so desperate to begin with...And people who are a little better off can afford to be more "charitible"?!