Is Akira Kurosawa the key? Ep 3

With this being the 100th post, I'd just like to thank everyone who has made this thread a darn good read.

Given recent spy reports, I thought I'd also repost this:

Maybe we will see a duel on a volcano after all. A dramatic confrontation at the edge of a volcanic crater occurs in Kurosawa's The Bad Sleep Well. In this film, a tormented corporate manager tries to commit suicide by jumping into a volcano (he was ordered to do so by his superiors for the sake of the company). However, the film's protagonist, whose father was killed by the company, stops him from doing do. The protagonist hides the manager away, and pretends that the suicide actually happened. He then arranges for the corporate heads to catch glimpses of the manager, in essence haunting them.

I'm not sure that any of the minute details are relevant, but perhaps Lucas took note of this film, and has decided to pay another homage to Kurosawa.

And cheers bad_radio!

 

i've only gotten a little bit into this, but i'm very glad i did. THIS IS WHAT I LOVE TO SEE!!!!! absolutely great stuff!!!!! can't wait to get more into what i've started to explore with this thread. thanks!!!

 

AMAZING! I just spent 3 hours reading all this. I always knew George used feudal Japan as an inspiration, but this Kurosawa comparison is just amazing.

Does anyone know where these films can be bought? DVD? VHS? Anywhere?

 

I think they are pretty much available anywhere. I think some are on DVD, but probably not all of them.

Back to the topic.....

People need to realize the problem that this creates.

It is a complete 180 degrees from what we see in the OT. If Yoda and Obi-Wan knew that Anakin could be redeemed, and they then somehow planned everything along these lines, we need to see it play out in Episode III.

We shouldn't have to go out and buy the annotated screenplays to come to this conclusion.

 

>>>> It is a complete 180 degrees from what we see in the OT. If Yoda and Obi-Wan knew that Anakin could be redeemed, and they then somehow planned everything along these lines, we need to see it play out in Episode III.

I think we will see something along those lines (like Anakin letting Obi-Wan and Luke go, and Obi-Wan realizing that Anakin let him go because Anakin didn?t want to have to kill his own son), but even if we don?t, the films give us enough to go on. Vader and Ben hate each other with such intensity that you have to suspect that there is some love there as well. I mean you don?t pay that much attention to someone unless you sincerely care about the other person. And isn?t a Jedi supposed to be dispassionate? Luke, I think, sees right through Ben?s hurtful words, and it all comes together near the end of Jedi, particularly when Vader reveals to Luke that ?Obi-Wan once thought as you do.?

 

It?s a fact that Anakin will turn to the dark side in episode 3, but at some point during the film we?ll see him on the verge of turning back. I feel this way because there?s a scene in Drunken Angel in which the doctor has convinced Mifune?s gangster character to change his ways. For a time, his character does make a change for the better, but around the same time, Mifune?s ex-boss is released from jail, and when the two of them meet up again, it?s clear that Mifune is deeply afraid of his boss. Accordingly, his fear causes him to revert back to his gangster self. The scene in which all this happens is especially upsetting.

Mifune is standing on the edge of the sump with a flower in his hand.
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The camera pans down to reveal Mifune?s shadow stretched across the sump. For a moment, his is the only shadow but suddenly another shadow moves in beside it.
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The second shadow is that of his ex-boss, fresh out of jail, and abruptly Mifune goes from standing tall to bowing and cringing before his old boss. By his mere presence, the gangster boss reduced Mifune back to the cheap hoodlum that he had been. The boss tells Mifune to come with him and Mifune kowtows, but not before he looks in humiliation at the flower and then throws it in the sump. Cut to a close-up of the flower floating in the bubbling filth.
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I can imagine a similar scene for episode 3 in which Anakin is standing on the edge of a bubbling lava pool, perhaps at his fire-world fortress that Joe Johnston conceptualized for TESB, or in the Emperor?s throne room residing in the bowels of Coruscant that Ralph McQuarrie envisioned for Jedi. Anakin, not yet in the Vader suit, but nevertheless turned to the dark side and working for Sidious, is beginning to have serious doubts as to the choices he has made. He?s on the verge of redemption because he has discovered that all the destructive conflict that plagues the Republic has been brought about by his new master, Darth Sidious, a.k.a. Chancellor Palpatine.

In his hand, furthermore, Anakin will have the japor snippet?the one he gave Padmé when he was a kid. Realizing Anakin?s dark side tendencies, Padmé gave the good luck charm back to help to remind Anakin of his true self: ?That little boy on Tatooine.? And now he is standing on the edge of that lava pool looking at the japor snippet. The camera pans down to reveal Anakin?s shadow elongated across the surface of the bubbling lava when suddenly it is joined by someone else?s shadow. The camera move swiftly back to Anakin and there is Palpatine standing next to him. Palpatine commands Anakin to come with him and Anakin will comply, but first Anakin will take a quick look in embarrassment at the japor snippet and then throw it into the lava. The camera will turn to look because this will be important, a straight symbol, the japor snippet floating on and then being consumed by the lava?for Anakin will have just thrown himself away.

 

I think we will see something along those lines (like Anakin letting Obi-Wan and Luke go, and Obi-Wan realizing that Anakin let him go because Anakin didn?t want to have to kill his own son)- bad radio

Something like this would work for me.

Its a fact that Anakin will turn to the dark side in episode 3, but at some point during the film we?ll see him on the verge of turning back. I feel this way because there?s a scene in Drunken Angel in which the doctor has convinced Mifune?s gangster character to change his ways.- bad radio

I like this idea a lot. It could work very well and have a strong emotional impact.

This type of scene would also add to my belief that Vader is more??melancholy?, than evil.

 

Fantastic research and posts Tk, Samurai Jack, and Bad Radio! I love the SW saga, and to learn (as I always believed) the samurai influence for the jedi charaters is concrete just makes me love SW that much more.

I have alway read books like "The book of five rings", "Bushido" and such other books dealing with the way of the sword. This probably the reason why the jedi and sith always captured my imagination. This also the reason why I enjoy the art of Kendo, both physically and spiritually.

I have not read such knowledgeable posts in a long time and very in depth. Much gratitude to you guys for giving us something of great substance.

Respectfully,

Prometheus

 

>>>> I have alway read books like "The book of five rings", "Bushido" and such other books dealing with the way of the sword.

If you liked The Book of Five Rings then you should read Hagakure, by Yamamoto Tsunetomo, and The Unfettered Mind, by Takuan Soho. Also, if you want to know about the mythology surrounding the guy who wrote Five Rings, then you should read Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa. And when you get done with that, pick up Taiko, another of Yoshikawa?s books.

 

This is one of the better boards I have seen lately. I really like the pics, very interesting.

 

I have read "Hagakure" but have not read "The Unfettered Mind". I'll make sure to pick up that one on my next trip to the bookstore.

Thanks for the references Bad Radio.

 

One has wonder just what role Jar Jar Binks will serve in Episode III, especially now since Lucas has said that Jar Jar will not die and will survive into the OT. As I said before I think the character of Jar Jar was inspired by the character of the porter in Kurosawa?s They Who Step on the Tiger?s Tail.

The story of Tiger?s Tail is based on a real historical anecdote. Yoritomo and Yo****sune Minamoto, two brothers whose father was killed by members of the rival Taira clan, are separated at an early age and subsequently reunited when they become adults, so that they may rise up and lead a rebellion against the Taira clan. The older Yoritomo, taking up the title of head of his clan, plans the assaults against the Taira and sends his brother, Yo****sune, who has the rank of So-daisho (general), to execute his plans. Yo****sune is victorious in one battle after another, which leads to his becoming very popular and idolized among the people. Eventually Yoritomo and Yo****sune defeat the Taira clan, but Yoritomo, fearing that his brother will oust him and take over as the leader of the Minamoto clan, sends his men to capture Yo****sune and put him to death. And this is where the story of Those Who Step on the Tiger?s Tail picks up.

Accompanied by his retainers and by his old friend, Benkei, all of whom are disguised as mountain priests, Yo****sune is fleeing from Yoritomo?s forces. They are marching through the woods when they come upon a lowly porter. At first, Benkei and Yo****sune will have nothing to do with the porter, played by the comedian, Enoken, but he reveals that Yoritomo?s men are lying in wait for Benkei and Yo****sune at a nearby checkpoint.
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The porter character is clearly the basis for Jar Jar. Just as Jar Jar leads the two Jedi through the woods and through the Naboo core to Theed, so too does the porter lead Benkei, Yo****sune, and his entourage to the checkpoint that?s guarded by Yoritomo?s men. The most conspicuous similarity to Jar Jar, however, is the range of emotions that Enoken?s neurotic character goes through, over-reacting to everything that happens. One minute he?s cowering, the next he beaming and strutting around.
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Worthy of note is what actually happens to Yo****sune once he and his men reach the checkpoint?it?s an event that suggests a much larger role for Jar Jar. Benkei disguises Yo****sune as a porter, and once he and his men reach the checkpoint they are confronted by the checkpoint commander, Togashi.
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Benkei nearly pulls off the illusion of merely being a bunch of mountain priests, even after Togashi nearly discovers Yo****sune?s samurai armor hidden away in Enoken?s backpack. Nevertheless, the plan starts to fall apart when Enoken starts to panic, which makes one of Togashi?s men take notice of the other porter, Yo****sune. The man calls Benkei and Yo****sune out, but before Togashi can act, Benkei starts beating Yo****sune, alleging that his ?porter? is too slow and always drawing attention to himself. This act is an affront to the ethos of Japanese feudalism. A retainer beating his lord is absolutely unheard of, but what?s fascinating about this scene is that Enoken?s character misses the whole point of Benkei?s actions and steps in to try and stop Benkei from beating Yo****sune. Here?s what Donald Richie, Kurosawa?s biographer, had to say about the character of the porter in this scene:

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It is he who stops the beating that Benkei is giving his lord. He enters the ac

 

You have done an excellent job in showing us the possible parallels. However, I don't think the general public, or even most Star Wars fans, would WANT Jar Jar to take part in Episode III's important events - let alone have any interaction with Vader! While it WOULD fit symbolically, and reflect other films, most would feel that it would lower the drama and quality of Ep III.

However, I DO feel that Anakin MAY have seconds thoughts during his duel with Obi-Wan. I feel it would be far more tragic if there HAD been a chance for Anakin to turn back, but fate would have some freak eruption or quake send Anakin into the lava at the last minute.

Most likely, this would be one of the things that Vader was thinking about while he was talking with Luke on the bridge in ROTJ. If only the eruption hadn't occurred. How things could've been so different. I would find this tragic.

 

>>>> However, I don't think the general public, or even most Star Wars fans, would WANT Jar Jar to take part in Episode III's important events - let alone have any interaction with Vader! While it WOULD fit symbolically, and reflect other films, most would feel that it would lower the drama and quality of Ep III.

Yours would be the same reaction that Japanese audiences had when they first saw They Who Step on the Tiger?s Tail. Before Kurosawa made this film, the story of Benkei and Yo****sune was already embedded in Japanese history and mythology. The story had been made into a Noh drama and a Kabuki play that practically everyone in Japan was familiar with. What Kurosawa did with Tiger?s Tail, however, turned everything on its ear. He altered the entire meaning of the story when he added the character of the extra porter, the part that Enoken would eventually play. Not only was this guy not part of the original story, his character irritated Japanese censors, so much so, that they banned the film?they felt that Kurosawa was mocking Kabuki tradition. When Japanese audiences finally did get to see the film (it was also banned by Allied Occupational Forces because of its portrayal of feudal loyalty) they derided it because it strayed too far from the traditional story. Kurosawa would eventually remake the film into The Hidden Fortress with Mifune?s General Rokurota taking up the Benkei character, Yo****sune was turned into Princess Yuki, Togashi into General Tadokoro, and Enoken?s character, the extra porter, was divided up between the two bumbling peasants. This film was also met with disdain, this time for being too ?western.? Ironically, it was a western director that copied The Hidden Fortress and turned it into Star Wars.

If you read Kurosawa?s biography, The Films of Akira Kurosawa by Donald Richie, you?ll realize that George had to have read this book also:

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It is the sixteenth century, a period of civil wars. A princess, with her family, her retainers, and the clan treasure is being pursued. If they can cross enemy territory and reach a friendly province they will be saved. The enemy knows this and posts a reward for the capture of the princess.

? Donald Richie, [i]The Films of Akira Kurosawa[/i][hr]
[hr]It is the thirty-third century, a period of civil wars in the galaxy. A rebel princess, with her family, her retainers, and the clan treasure, is being pursued. If they can cross territory controlled by the Empire and reach a friendly planet, they will be saved. The Sovereign knows this, and posts a reward for the capture of the princess.

? George Lucas, [i]The Star Wars[/i] 1973 Story Synopsis[hr][/blockquote]I point this out because everything I?ve mentioned above regarding how Japanese audiences disliked Kurosawa for adding the extra porter to the story of Benkei and Yo****sune is outlined in this book. So when George added Jar Jar to the story, you can bet that he already knew that Jar Jar would not be well received, but nevertheless he added him anyway. The following is another excerpt from Kurosawa?s biography that addresses the character of the extra porter:

[blockquote][hr]In the opening sequence, he seems mere clown. We first hear his laugh?an aimless, meaningless, self-deprecating and irritating laugh. It brings down the wrath of the disguised priests who will have nothing to do with him. We agree?he is completely ordinary and our interest therefore is in laughing at him. As the film progresses, however, its very sophistication suggests that more than a clown is present.[hr][/blockquote]Maybe when someone writes George?s biography, there might be a section on Jar Jar that will read:

[blockquote][hr] In the opening sequence, he seems mere clown. We first hear his voice?an aimless, meaningless, self-deprecating and irritating voice. It brings down the wrath of the Jedi who will have nothing to do with him. We agree?he is ?brainless? and our interest therefore is in laughing at him. As the film

 

Extremely well done Bad Radio! I always held the belief and posted it many times on TFN that the OT would not dictate the PT. I was one to believe, and still do, that the PT would dictate the OT. I believed this would change completely how we viewed the OT just as you had mentioned. I received much objection but slowly others started to come around this theory.

There our very few suprises left, and this twist of dictation would offer GL one last chance to pull off one more big suprise.

I have watched the films of Akira Kurosawa and made many connections. Thank you, and to others, who have supported and provided this great collection of information.

Thanks Bad Radio


Prometheus

 

I?m not sure I want Jar Jar having that prominent a role in the most important Star Wars chapter.

One more thing.

My problem with Jar Jar surviving Episode III and with everyone who wants Padme to survive Episode III, I find myself asking this question: ?Where are they now??

I mean, I know Padme is dead, but is she? What if Leia was wrong? What if Padme is somewhere else, in hiding?

My point is that we are talking about important characters. Okay, maybe not Jar Jar, but he?s had enough screen time to be able to warrant an appropriate demise. Is he to be another character that just disappears and is never heard from in the original trilogy?

What about Padme? I consider her the second most important character in Star Wars after Anakin. After all, this is his love, his life, his wife. The mother of his children, the children that will eventually redeem him. Her importance cannot be overstated.

Are we just supposed to accept that she dies off-screen?

What about the idea to shoot footage of Portman and Smits on Alderaan before it's destroyed and insert it into the OT-DVD for ?A New Hope?. That sounds even worse.

Bad Radio, you need to search Kurosawa to find a suitable demise for Padme. She cannot survive Episode III.

 

I absolutely agree with Meloncholy. Soap operas which are the least attrative to me in plots (thus the reason I don't watch them) don't have charaters disappearing w/out a trace on or off screen.

GL would do well by ending EPIII at the point Leia remembers her mother and deciding her fate at the point.


Prometheus

 

One has wonder just what role Jar Jar Binks will serve in Episode III, especially now since Lucas has said that Jar Jar will not die and will survive into the OT.

BR, could you post a reference for this? I don't recall reading anything about this...

 

>>>> BR, could you post a reference for this? I don't recall reading anything about this...

click me

 

Just thought I would up this thread with some screen comparisons between some Kurosawa films and A New Hope.

The Hidden Fortress

The Hidden Fortress starts out with the two bickering peasants, who everybody knows was in the inspiration for the droids. The two of them are fleeing the ravages of civil war when all the sudden they are confronted with a horrific sight. Coming into the shot we see a wounded samurai and he appears to be running from someone or something.
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Then entering into the shot we see what he?s running from; a group of samurai on horseback from the Yamana clan ride through the shot and kill the wounded samurai.
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The horsemen turn around and then glance momentarily at the peasants. They look at the two men like animals?the peasants aren?t worth killing and then the samurai ride out of the shot.
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This opening scene is similar to the bantering that goes on between Artoo and Threepio on Tatooine, not to mention that when they jumped in the escape pod the Imperial soldiers didn?t blast the pod.
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Just like the samurai thought the peasants weren?t worth killing, the Imperial soldiers also think that the pod isn?t worth blasting.

After a pretty funny argument between the two of them, the peasants split up and go their separate ways just like Artoo and Threepio. However, they can?t stay out of the Yamanas? sights forever, and eventually both of them are picked up by Yamana troops and are made into slaves.
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In time they are reunited with one another when the Yamanas put them to work tearing apart a castle in an effort to find 200 bars of gold that are supposed to be hidden there.
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Later, the peasants escape and end up wandering around the wilderness. One day while they?re cooking some rice, they notice that the firewood they?re using isn?t working too well; the firewood will not burn because hidden inside of it is a bar of gold. Moreover, this is one of the 200 bars of gold that the Yamanas were looking for in the aforementioned castle. The two peasants realize this, and so begins their hunt for more sticks with gold bars in them?the gold becomes the McGuffin of the film (just like the Death Star plans).
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Their search ultimately puts them in contact with General Rokurota.
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Similarly, Luke finds Princess Leia?s message inside Artoo. This discovery ultimately puts him in contact with General Kenobi.
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It turns out that General Rokurota is guarding Princess Yuki, heir to the Akizuki clan, and the 200 bars of gold are part of a royal treasure that Rokurota has in his possession. The Yamana clan is searching for Princess Yuki and her gold, so Rokurota is hiding Yuki, her mother and father, and the gold in a hidden mountain fortress. His p

 

Bravo, Bad Radio! Splendind research. I appreciate your, and Tk's, posts! They have been by far the best into what may and may not happen in EPIII. I have not seen all of Akira's films but I see the influence is certainly concrete.

I say so far, these post are better and contain more substance than any spoiler out there because it certainly sets a pattern of contribution by Akira's film that leads us to logically debate with more certainty. I do not believe GL will stray that far from his earlier pattern.

Prometheus

 

Thanks Prometheus. I plan on doing a comparison for Empire next, just as soon as I get a copy of Kurosawa?s Dersu Uzala. The title character, Dersu, was the inspiration for Yoda. Not to mention that the locale of this film prompted Lucas to start Empire off with Luke and Han taking a survey of the frozen tundra, and then struggling to survive a snowstorm; Dersu and the Russian soldier Arseniev are exploring the Ussuri regions of Siberia when they too get caught in a blizzard. What?s more, this is where Lucas gets his technology vs. nature theme that runs throughout SW (a theme that Lucas first wanted to explore in his version of Apocalypse Now), and I think it is also where the got the ?balance of the Force? concept because one of the prevailing themes in Dersu Uzala is the precarious ?balance of nature.?

 

Not one star wars fan can ever consider himself a fan if he has never seen or heard about Akira Kurosawa. Not only is it ethnocentric to ignore Kurosawa's influence on Lucas, but it is a great insult on the SW films in general.
To the creators and serious contributors to this thread I say this: Yours are the true hearts of artists, and the minds of unimaginable infinities. Keep up the amazing and beautiful work and may the force be with you.


P.S. Mods: This is a REAL Ep 3 speculation thread.

 

bad radio: "(Tadokoro ends up joining the heroes, while Vader tracks them to Dantooine.)"

You should apply tadokoro's redemption to the whole of the saga. Kurosawa's story of a fallen hero being redeemed is his main influence for Anakin's whole story. when Tadokoro rejoins the hero, this marks Anakins redemption in ROTJ.

Also remember tadokoro's facial battle scars are reminiscent of Vader and his wounds. Personally, the fight scene between these two in THF was the biggest influence I noticed, in terms of Lucas' overall story. Great post bad radio.

 

>>>> You should apply tadokoro's redemption to the whole of the saga. Kurosawa's story of a fallen hero being redeemed is his main influence for Anakin's whole story. when Tadokoro rejoins the hero, this marks Anakins redemption in ROTJ.

I know what you mean Clonetrooper about Tadokoro?s redemption?it?s actually what prompted this thread and this thread?s predecessor that used to be on the Episode II board. What I was trying to do, though, was get across plot-wise just the similarities between THF and ANH.