Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by TK327, Dec 28, 2001.
this is great stuff!
The full Japanese name for Hidden Fortress is "Kakushi Toride no San Akunin" which i would translate as something like "The Hidden Fortress's Three Bad Men"
Akunin = Bad man
Anakin = Vilian
With all the talk of a particular Episode III set that is already supposed to be notorious for its gale-force winds, does any one think this will have anything to do with the locale for the Obi-Wan and Anakin duel? I mention this because the end of Sanshiro Sugata is marked with the most famous fight scene in all of Japanese cinema in which Sanshiro and Gonnosuke battle it out on the windswept hills of Ukyo-gahara. Here are some pics:
Sanshiro waiting for Gonnosuke:
[image=http://members.cox.net/badradio/SUG017.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/badradio/SUG018.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/badradio/SUG019.JPG]
Sanshiro defeats Gonnosuke:
That last image is especially powerful?Sanshiro prevails, and Gonnosuke, unconscious, slides face-first down the grassy hill. Imagine Obi-Wan defeating Anakin in such a manner and then, for some reason or another, leaving Anakin for dead (only to found by the Emperor, of course!).
Does anyone remember those old Ralph McQuarrie production paintings that he did for the original SW of the lone Jedi traipsing through a field of tall, overgrown grass?
Thanks bad_radio! You just answered something i've always wandered about.
I've always wandered where the the dream/fight sequence from the Korean movie "My Sassy Girlfriend" comes from. I thought that little scene was great... i wished i could see a whole movie like that! It seemed a little similar to the fight scene amongst fluttering sheets of paper at the end of "Once Upon a Time in China," but i just felt that wasn't the reference. There's also a similar scenes in "Warcraft III", where the soldier and Orc fight in the opening cut-scene.
... Now i fanally know... ^___,^
Thank you bad_radio!!!
I realized in another thread how different my view of Anakin?s character is from the norm. I guess one of the reasons I feel the way I do is because I?m acquainted with how much George took from Kurosawa when he assembled the story for SW. One film in particular, Sanjuro, seems to be a veritable treasure trove of characters and storylines that Lucas lifted and refitted for his SW films, and to me it seems that Darth Vader is in part based on the character of Muroto from this film.
Visually they are introduced in their respective films in the same manner, not to mention that many of Muroto?s lines were passed on to Vader in ANH. I bring this up because if Lucas had Muroto in mind when he was writing Vader, then not only were shots recreated, and his dialogue transferred, but maybe some of Muroto?s character motivations extend to Vader as well. If so, then this sheds some light on why Vader willingly joined Sidious/Palpatine/the Emperor. Muroto sides with the Superintendent in Sanjuro with the intent to eventually kill the Superintendent. Likewise, I think Anakin joins up with Sidious for the sole reason to someday kill Sidious and restore order to the galaxy.
This is the best thread on the entire forum.
bad_radio, your posts provide some of the most educated and thoughtful ideas out there regarding the dramatic change in our perception of Vader in the OT. I pray that a lot of your speculation is correct, or I may be very disapointed in Episode III.
Keep up the great work!!
Great work again bad radio
Is it possible the duel is a top priority in the shooting schedule? That's why they've run into these "wind" problems.
that's just wierd that Lucas would copy soo much from the movie
No it's not. Nearly every form of language, media, movie, poem, book, etc... has its root of inspiration from some previous work. Lucas is steeped in lore.
Bad Radio, remember that McCallum said footage from New Zealand would be used in EpIII? I think New Zealand would be perfect for settings similar to the ones shown in your <<Sanshiro Sugata>> pics.
I love this thread. I just wish more people would post in it.
I've been browsing through this thread again. Great stuff.
I know you subscribe to the theory that Anakin is more or less biding his time under Palpatine, with the sole purpose of killing him and restoring order to the galaxy.
I agree that, after some years have passed, Vader does grow to resent being a slave to Palpatine. But in the early stages of his time as Vader, I think he will be a willing servant, and believe in Palpatine's politics and his perspective of the Force.
To the point... In Lucas's interview with Bill Moyers, he discusses how he researched evil people in history to find out what makes man have such a capacity for evil. He essentially explains that the PT will detail why Anakin became the evil Darth Vader. To me, it seems like you're saying the PT explains why Vader isn't really the evil person he appears to be. I think those are two very different concepts. Am I misreading you, or do you think I'm misreading Lucas?
One thing I think I need to have happen to support my theory is that Vader thinks Luke is dead along with Padme. I think that knowing Luke is out there would lend more credence towards your theory of Vader just biding his time. But to me, if his family is completely gone, Anakin is more willing to surrender to complete darkness, and only upon finding out his son is actually still alive does he regain a spark of his former self.
This is not as coherent as I'd like it to be this time of night, but hopefully it's enough to get the points across. I'm interested in your reply.
>>One thing I think I need to have happen to support my theory is that Vader thinks Luke is dead along with Padme. I think that knowing Luke is out there would lend more credence towards your theory of Vader just biding his time. But to me, if his family is completely gone, Anakin is more willing to surrender to complete darkness, and only upon finding out his son is actually still alive does he regain a spark of his former self.
I gotta agree. If Anakin were to believe that Padme was dead - taking his unborn child with her - then he would be more likely to give himself to the dark side. It is likely that Anakin would blame the Jedi for this - and Obi-Wan in particular. The Jedi took him from his mother, allowed her to die, then take away his wife and son. The Vader we see at the beginning of Ep4 is a man who has lost everything he has ever loved. He is a man without hope (hence, a second meaning to the title of the film - Luke is a new hope for the galaxy, Anakin is given a new hope for redemption when he discovers Luke is alive - setting off his obsessive search in Empire).
fantastic research here folks! fascinating stuff.
Nice! a Sugata reference and pictures to boot! I've seen practically all of Kurosawa's films dozens of times each and I agree that a conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wan like the one in the end of Sugata would be sweeeeeeeeeeee-t. That McQuarrie concept art you're talking about was a concept for Alderaan, with it's sprawling grasslands and gigantic hive structures. It's kinda like Geonosis meets Naboo.
Also, nice comparison pics at the beginning of the thread. I think I read someone in here mention Okamoto's Sword of Doom, and the anti-hero Ryunnosoke (spelling?) is definitely what I envision Episdoe 3 era-Anakin to be. By the way, that film features some of the best swordfights ever put to film. Tatsuya Nakadai is awesome in that flick, as he is in Sanjuro, Yojimbo, Kagemusha, Ran, High and Low etc. etc. etc.
My personal favorite Kurosawa film: Throne of Blood.
I mentioned Kurosawa?s film Ikiru earlier in this thread. The following is a quick synopsis of the film:
Ikiru is the story of Watanabe Kanji. He is the head of a government office called the ?Citizens? Section,? which caters to the needs and complaints of the city?s populace. When we first meet Watanabe, he is sitting at his desk, piles of documents are stacked to the ceiling behind him, and he is reading and stamping a pile of documents in front of him. He has been reading and stamping documents for some 25 years, not once having missed a day on the job. His work is interrupted briefly when a group of housewives enter into his office and complain of a sump that is causing their kids to get sick. The ladies request that the sump be cleaned up and recommend that it be turned into a playground. Without even looking up from his papers, instead of recognizing the women?s problem and helping them, Watanabe merely passes them off to another government office.
This, we find out, is the way things work?or rather how they don?t work. Watanabe?s office is part of an enormous network of government offices that act as one giant bureaucracy, and we see this bureaucracy in all of its glory when the ladies that Watanabe ignored are subsequently passed off from one office to the next. Not one of the offices actually takes responsibility for the women?s problem, and eventually the ladies? journey leads them right back to Watanabe?s office. But by the time they get back to the Citizens? Section, Watanabe is gone?absent from work for the first time in 25 years. The women are asked to fill out a formal petition. They do, and their request is filed with all the other documents piled on Watanabe?s desk.
It didn?t always used to be this way. In Watanabe?s desk drawer we catch a glimpse of a memo that Watanabe wrote some 25 years ago when he first took charge of the Citizens? Section. It outlined the ways he was going to streamline office efficiency so that the Citizens? Section could better assist the people it was meant to serve. In other words, Watanabe sets out to remake his office into one that faithfully serves the people and isn?t bogged down by bureaucratic red tape, but clearly his idealistic goals never come to fruition. We are later shown that the reason for this is because something tragic happened to Watanabe early on in his career. Not too long after Watanabe wrote his memo, his wife passed away.
The day Watanabe?s wife died, moreover, might as well have marked the day that Watanabe died, too. He never remarries. He no longer aspires to change the Citizens? Section. Instead, Watanabe, without any regard for his own happiness, devotes his life solely to his son, Mitsuo. This is why day in and day out Watanabe sits at his desk stamping papers. This is why he becomes part of the very bureaucracy that he despises. He spends all his time in his office working so that he seems invaluable in the eyes of his superiors, thus building up his job security, and at the same time he builds up his pension that he will eventually pass on to his son. Ironically, Watanabe?s devotion to his son is so extreme, he ends up spending more time at the office than he does with Mitsuo. This is depicted through a brilliant flashback sequence, part of which shows one day where Mitsuo is scheduled for an appendix operation, and Watanabe drops him off at the hospital and then goes off to work. Accordingly, it comes as no surprise when we later find out that over the years Watanabe has become estranged from his son.
This brings up an important question. Watanabe hasn?t missed a day of work for over 25 years. He didn?t even take a day off of work to be with his son during his son?s appendix operation. So why, then, is he not at his desk when the aforementioned housewives make their way back to the Citizens? Section? What is so important that it keeps him away from work? Well anyone who has seen the film knows the answer straight away because the film opens with an x-ray picture of someone?s chest. The x-ray shows that this perso
How did the Jedi take Anakin away from his mother? As I remember the movie, he was freed and given a choice about whether he wanted to go with Qui-Gon. How did they let his mother die? According to Lucas's storyline, it's a big galaxy with a few thousand Jedi who do not claim to be able to correct every wrong and injustice that exists -- who believe that others have a responsibility to correct "wrongs" and that some things just happen - like the inevitability of people dying. It's Anakin's instincts to covet,to control and to blame and project his own shortcomings on others that are his weaknesses.
Long time no read Bad Radio. Nice to see you are still around my informed friend.
I've been waiting for an update on this thread for awhile now. I have not seen Sanjuro (Spelling?) but I have seen some of Akira's other films. GL will find away to keep the knowledge of Lukes whereabouts and survival between Vader, Yoda, and Obi wan without destroying or contradicting any OT continuity. He has done a great job so far and he isn't finish yet. In the end he will produce a master piece the hard way: Beginning at the end and ending with the beginning.
Great post as always Bad Radio and hopefully a few of us who believe in the connection between Akira and GL films will see our observation come to pass.
DarthToeJam: How did the Jedi take Anakin away from his mother? How did they let his mother die?
Anakin went with Qui-Gon willingly, but they took him away nonetheless. The Jedi code is designed to prevent attachments so that a Jedi can dedicate him/herself to serve ALL rather than just an individual. This seems to be the reasoning behind identifying potential Jedi early -- to prevent them from forming attachments with their parents. (It also makes sense that Luke's age didn't play a factor in his training because his Aunt and Uncle - his surrogate parents - were dead)
In AOTC, Anakin already seems to resent the Jedi code. He's looking for a loophole in the code -- a way of twisting the code to make it seem like they are "encouraging him to love." Becoming a Jedi meant that Anakin had to leave his mother behind and not look back -- to give his whole life to the Order. It is likely that one of the contributing factors in Anakin's fall will be his resentment of the Jedi and their code. The Jedi code required that he leave behind a woman he loved - his mother. He wasn't even able to even return to Tatooine and free her as he promised. Had he been allowed to do that, and had he been allowed to maintain a relationship with her, she might not have died at the hands of the sandpeople. Since Anakin is already willing to blame others ("It's all Obi-Wan's fault!"), it seems likely that he'll blame the Jedi Order for losing the people he loves too.
To add to Darth Toe Jam's statement, Anakin was only 10 years old when he decided to leave his mother for the Jedi Order. Surely you can't hold a ten year old accountable for such a huge and adult decision. Did he realize the magnitude of his decision? No. Was he fully aware or understood the kind of commitment he was making? No. Not a ten year old. As much as he wanted to understand his decision he just couldn't at such a young age.
As Darth Toe Jam mentioned, He later grew to resent the Jedi Code, the result of a decision made very early in age, not having the mental capacity to fully understand the depths of his decision to leave.
You can't hold a ten year old accountable in such a situation.
Following your logic, perhaps Anakin should blame his mother? When he looked to her for guidance, her response to him was "This path has been placed before you..."
Anyway, I'm obviously not a fan of contorting oneself to justify Anakin's need to lay blame at everyone else's feet for his murderous actions or to project his own ugly instincts on to others (e.g. his obsession with transposing his insecrities on OB1). His obsession with a 14 year-old for over 10 years gives me the creeps, too.
This is a great thread re. AK's influence on Lucas.
He probably could blame his mother, Honour. But you know he is not going to. Anakin has always been insecure about things. But logically, yes, he could blame his mother and the Jedi Order. In fact he only blames the Jedi Order because they prevented from saving her and not for taking him alway from her. He did promise to come back and free her but, as you know, he wasn't allowed to.
But I agree in that Anakin must be held responsible for the decisions made in his adult years but not for those made as a child. His mother is at fault along with the Jedi Order.
Keep in mind that what I am saying here is that 10 year old Anakin can't be held accountable for his actions but surely the adult Anakin can.
But what are we talking about here? A movie? Yes we are. Nevertheless it is fun to speculate and converse on these issues regarding our beloved Star Wars saga.
I don?t know if it has been mentioned in this topic, but the Taiwanese(?) movie "A Touch Of Zen" seems to share some similarities between both TPM and AOTC in terms of characters and fight-scenes.I can?t help wondering whether Lucas was inspired by this movie; It did serve as an inspiration for Ang Lee when he made Crouching Tiger?
Has anybody else seen this film?
Edit: You can find details of the film on IMDB. It's apparently also known as "Hsia nu" and was made in 1969.I saw it on TV in England.I've really no idea whether it's available on video/DVD.
I should also mention there is virtualy no action for the first hour (it's three hours long).
Never heard of the film? Who produced it? Like to see it.