Discussions Is Darth Plagueis the strongest Sith in Bane's Order?

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by Graves101, Sep 24, 2013.

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  1. Silas Nightstalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    I would say that Plagueis was definitely the smartest in Bane's order. He lived a very long life and had learned many Force techniques that even Palpatine never learned. If you go under the premise that knowledge is power, then he was definitely the most powerful. However, he was far too trusting of his apprentice, and it cost him his life. Unfortunately, many of the tricks he knew were lost forever upon his death. Palpatine never learned all of Plagueis's techniques. I personally think that Palpatine was the most powerful.
  2. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    Indeed, knowledge is power, but the person that knows more isn't necessarily the strongest. Anakin Skywalker in his prime's a good example of this. Boy was arrogant, naive, and generally ignorant as hell, but he was still one of the most powerful Force users of all time, rivaling and surpassing many Jedi Masters. I'd say Plagueis definitely knew things and abilities Palpatine didn't, but that after killing his Master Palpatine eventually surpassed him in power, though not knowledge of the Force.
  3. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    This brings up an interesting point. When is the ideal time for an apprentice to kill of his master? I personally would be worried there was some huge skill or secret that my master hadn't shared yet. Of course, that was part of the mind game on the master's part....
  4. Silas Nightstalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    I think a classic example is Obi-Wan versus Vader on Mustafar. Vader was obviously stronger than Kenobi, but Kenobi was smarter, taking advantage of the environment and guiding the fight so that it favored him. Had Palpatine and Plagueis dueled, I believe Plagueis would have played mind games with him, leading him to believe that if he struck him down that he would lose all these grand secrets of the Force. Palpatine would hesitate, and Plagueis would end it. Now, Palps is stronger than his master, but that would do him no good, unless he called his masters bluff.
  5. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1
    Krayt as far as I remember could even heal himself from death, but he could still be killed.

    Plagueis through his midichlrorian manipulation was trying to get to a point where you could put a lightsaber through his head and he could laugh. Indeed the chapter that talks about that is called "Quantum Being", this is what Plagueis was trying to become through midichlorian manipulation. An example of a Quantum Being is Dr Manhattan from Watchmen, a guy whose body was made of energy and thus could not be killed even if shredded to pieces, who could bend reality itself.

    "I have walked in the surface of the sun" - Dr Manhattan.

    This is way beyond Transfer Essence or anything Krayt has done.
  6. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1
    I think being superior in (combative) Force Powers and Dueling, Sidious would still have beat him. Anakin beat Obi-Wan because Anakin didn't had mastered his Force potential (at which point he would have owned anyone), but Sidious would had. What Plagueis had over Sidious was ridiculous potential.

    The issue with Sidious and Plagueis, is that Sidious had to k ill him without any chance of error. He couldn't risk Plagueis to live because it was a losing battle agaisnt time for Sidious, specially after wiping out the Jedi Order, at which point Plagueis believed he would be capable of fully dominating midichlorians. In fact if my memory doesn't fail me even with the Jedi Order still in place, Plagueis already believed he was about to go through the immortality breakthrough shortly before he was killed.

    Sidious was going to become a politician dictator of the Galaxy through a technological Empire, Plagueis was going to become a "Quantum Being", after that it was pretty much GG for Sidious.
  7. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    After he became Emperor, Palpatine "gathered the greatest works of [Force] knowledge from over a million worlds" and "studied the Force in all its guises," including the native magicks of his Dark Side adepts (Dark Empire Sourcebook).

    Plagueis was very well educated in the ways of the Force, but Sidious was probably more learned at the very end.
  8. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1

    No, all that knowledgement wasn't on that level:

    "
    It had been theorized by Jedi and Sith alike that balance
    between the light and dark sides was actually under the
    guidance of a group of discorporate entities—the ones
    called the Celestials, perhaps—who had merged
    themselves with the Force thousands of generations
    earlier, and had continued to guide the fate of the galaxy
    ever since. In effect, a higher order of intermediaries,
    whose powers were beyond the understanding of mortal
    beings. But many Sith viewed the notion with disdain, for
    the theoretical existence of such a group had little bearing
    on the goal of making the Force subservient to the will of an
    enlightened elite. Only the Sith understood that sentient life
    was on the verge of a transformative leap; that through the
    manipulation of midi-chlorians—or the overthrow of the
    Forceful group that supervised them—the divide between
    organic life and the Force could be bridged, and death
    could be erased from the continuum."


    "As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to
    perpetuate their spirits after physical death—foremost
    among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a
    thousand years—the ancient Sith had come halfway across
    that bridge. But those few had been so focused on worldly
    power that they had ended up trapping themselves
    between realms. That they had never provided the Order
    with guidance from beyond attested to the fact that their
    influence had been negligible, and had long since faded
    from the world.
    In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been
    responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side
    Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether
    realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding
    off the energies of others, rather than by tapping the
    deepest strata of the Force and learning to speak the
    language of the midi-chlorians."

    All those techniques, were neat, Plagueis on the other hand going deep into the very core of the Force. Indeed the chapter is called Quantum Being, which is what Plagueis was aiming to become. To put you an example of how broken this is, Dr Manhattan from Watchmen is a Quantum Being, search for Quantum Beings in fiction, they are usually beings so powerful that can bend time, space and reality itself.

    His research was aiming to become like that elusive race that controlled to totality of the Force. To put an analogy, I agree that Sidious at the end learned all or almost all "Dark Side Powers" with all stats maxed out, which is amazing, Plagueis on the othet hand was aiming to directly hack the Source Code. The Force created the Chosen One in an attempt to stop Plagueis, a plan to exterminate the Jedi or put a Galactic Empire was not enough for the Force to do that, only Plagueis's Midichlorian Manipulation made The Force decided that it needed to birth a being that at full power could **** on The Ones.

    Of course Sidious, was in the end more powerful yes. Sidious had more knowledgement regarding number of techniques by other Siths? Yes. But Plagueis knowledgement was way way waaaaaaay more dangerous. So no, Sidious was not more learned and educated in the end, Plagueis's Midichlorian Manipulation died with him, no Sith or Jedi that we know of ever replicated this, not even Art of Small.

    Sidious got all the powers and items in the game and maxed out stats, Plagueis on the other hand was attempting to become the game. So they are different type of knowledgement, in techniques, combat and compendium of research I give it to Sidious in more educated and learned. In potential for infinite growth and the most dangerous I give it to Plagueis. The difference is that Sidious lived to actually get all his items, learn all powers and max out his stats, while Plagueis never lived to the point where he was fully able to hack the game.
  9. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    ...But Plagueis didn't succeed.
  10. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1
    Which is why Sidious at the end was more powerful. However this doesn't make Sidious more educated and knowledgeable. In being with more knowledgement and educated, at least regarding dangerous knowledgement Plagueis wins hands down.
  11. Silas Nightstalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    I think a resurrected Plagueis would be the perfect villain for VII.
    Chewbacca89 likes this.
  12. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1
    I was thinking the same, but sadly

    1) Disney doesn't have the guts to pull it off

    2) Palpatine fans would burn down the studios
  13. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    Sounds like an awful idea.
  14. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Why? I personally would love it.
  15. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1
    I would like the idea too.
  16. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    I tend to dislike the concept of old villains being resurrected, and think it shows a lack of imagination on the author's part. What's more, I'm sick of seeing Sith as villains, and this being a new trilogy and possibly the start or rebirth of the franchise so to speak i'd like for the creators to do their own thing without relying on the original material to much besides characters that are essential like Luke, Han, and Leia.
  17. Silas Nightstalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    Plagueis isn't really an old villain, though. He was only briefly mentioned in the movies. The general public knows pretty much nothing about him. If Plagueis came back, in a reincarnated way perhaps, he would pose quite a threat.
  18. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    He's a villain who's already been used in a novel and had his entire arc wrapped up. He's an old villain. Doesn't matter if people know about him or not. I'm also not saying he wouldn't pose a threat.
  19. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    I would say that just depends on how you look at it. I see what you are say, I personally just don't view him as an old villain in the context of the movies. And since its safe to assume that the ST will overwrite most of the EU, we could just pretend the novel isn't cannon. In the context of the movies anyway.
  20. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    Unless they rewrote his history in some major way, which I really don't see happening cause the backdrop for it was laid in ROTS, I wouldn't want to see him or any old villain ever again. He'd be better than some crappy plot involving Palpatine though.
  21. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Well more likely than not, Sith will be in the ST. So if not Plagueis or Palpatine, then who? Or just someone brand new?
  22. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    I'd prefer the villains be brand new yes. Though I won't be surprised if they just have it be a resurgent Empire or something.
  23. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    I would be perfectly happy with having a brand new sith as well. How would you feel if it was someone they retconned as being a secret apprentice to say Vader or Palpatine? I think I would prefer a Sith who has no (or very limited) ties to previous villains as well.

    I will admit, me loving Plagueis as a villain kind of contradicts this. After thinking about I guess I wouldn't want him to be in Episode 7, but rather a spin-off.
  24. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    I think since they're going to be breaking new ground so to speak it's better for them to have a completely new villain with no ties to the old. Not only does it show creativity, but it gives them more freedom as they don't have to limit themselves to any events from the past movies. That being said, i'd still be very surprised if the villain isn't a Sith with some connection to Palpatine and Vader. I just don't have high enough expectations. It would really suck if it was just Palpatine again but having resurrected himself a la Dark Empire.
  25. darthvenki Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2013
    Darth Plagueis as villian would be such a cool idea... He is brand new in he movies and still a mystery even after the novel... There is no resurrection people, Darth Plagueis may have simply did not die, may be he fooled Sidious. And Sidious never bothered to check on the body of Plagueis in the Novel.

    We dont need to make up stories too much, but IF ANY OF YOU HERE want Plagueis in the film, is it possible to write to JJ.ABRAMS ????

    FOR PLAGUEIS! :)
    Chewbacca89 likes this.
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