Discussion in 'Belgium' started by Apophis, Jul 4, 2002.
I think he is.
You would be surprised how many people think that Sidious isn't Palpatine. Thats why is ask it.
I'm quite sure he is.
But his face is different when he's Sidious,that's why people are in doubt.
I think Palpatine/Sidious has some sort of skin disease,you can clearly see it in EPII.
he's in bad shape, probably since he got aides
I think Palpatine is Sidious, most arguments to the contrary doesn't sound convincing enough.
Besides in the OT he's called Emperor Palpatine and I think it'd be odd if Sidious would have 'taken care of' Palpatine in secret to take his place.
This must be the most-repeaten starwars topic ever.
I think Sideous isn't Palpatine. Look at the way Palpatine is slowly growing into the ROTJ look. In EPI he still looks fresh. In EPII it's ten years later and he wears black robes, he is showing some of the facial "rimpels" (Whats English for that?) he has in ROTJ. EPIII will be a step further, probably.
Then look at Darth Sideous who quite resembles the Emperor in ROTJ. He has the same outfit in both movies he's been in, and it shows no progress at all. Note the small differences between Emp-Palp and D-Sid and the constant outfit of D-Sid and the progress of outfit of Palpatalpatine. It's easier for me to imagine (visually) that Palps becomes Emperor and Sideous somehow gets lost in galactic history, then they're the same person.
So far for the lame argument.
One strange thing is the Confederacy army. If Sideous is Palpatine it would be strange that he has control over two armies battling each other. The point people who claim sideous is palpatine make, is that the Jedi get involved in this battle and they get crushed between them. To an extent this is possible. But it is very strange that there is not even a single battle droid left of the Confederacy armies after the Clone Wars. If Dooku is the apprentice of Palpatine (and thus Sideous) there would be a point where they would say: "Well enough Jedi's wasted, let's crush the rest of them with our combined armies."
Strange enough, nothing of the Confederacy is left after the Clone War(s).
For EpI :
First and foremost, we know that Darth Sidious is Senator Palpatine, the official representative of Naboo in the Galactic Senate. I would hope that the readers realize this, but one cannot always count on people to recognize the obvious. Long-standing underestimates of Imperial fleet size, in obvious contradiction to the sheer size of the Death Star (as large as 24 million Star Destroyers), demonstrate that people can indeed be capable of not seeing something that is right in front of their noses. It has been pointed out that perhaps the obvious connection between Palpatine and Sidious is actually too obvious, and there might be some sort of "twist" in Episode II. That's always possible, but at this point, we can only go on what we know, and not assume that something must not be true just because it's too obvious. So, assuming that everyone understands who Sidious is, what does he want? We know the following:
He is secretly orchestrating the actions of the Trade Federation. They defer to his wishes, and essentially obey his commands. When talking among themselves, they mention a "bargain" that they've struck with him, but they do not describe this bargain.
He is a Sith Lord. According to Yoda, there are only two Sith Lords: no more, and no less. There is always a master, and an apprentice. Darth Maul is introduced as his apprentice, so Darth Sidious is clearly the master.
He continually instructs the TradeFed viceroy to commit progressively more heinous acts. The blockade was clearly his idea (otherwise, why would they choose Naboo?), as was the decision to invade the planet. Later, when he learns of the Queen's return and her attempt to form an army to resist the TradeFed occupying forces, he goes even further, instructing the Viceroy to "wipe them out".
He initially urges Queen Amidala to accept TradeFed control, implying that he wants her to sign the treaty. However, he also urges her not to return to Naboo, knowing perfectly well that she may be forced to sign the treaty if she returns.
He is elected to the position of Supreme Chancellor at the end of the film, thanks to Queen Amidala's motion for a vote of no-confidence in the weak and ineffective Chancellor Valorum. He had previously noted that Naboo's unfortunate situation would generate a "strong sympathy vote" for him, and although he claimed to be surprised by his nomination to the position, we can have no doubt that he had previously manipulated the various chess pieces on the board in such a manner that he would become nominated in the aftermath of Valorum's removal, against opponents who could not possibly defeat him.
So what has Sidious done? From all appearances, it seems as if he has convinced the TradeFed leaders that he would be able to revoke the disputed taxes, provided they followed his instructions. This would be the "bargain" of which the Neimoidians spoke. Clearly, he instructed them to blockade Naboo to apply pressure to the Senate. We saw him instruct them to invade Naboo, and he assured them that he would be able to make the invasion legal, so he probably instructed them to draw up a treaty legalizing the invasion, and then he instructed them to force Queen Amidala to sign it.
But at this point, his plan clearly went awry. Queen Amidala escaped Naboo at the urging of Qui-Gon Jinn, who used his Force-enhanced intuition to advise her that "they will kill you if you stay". We can assume that Palpatine did not want this to happen, so what was his original plan, before Queen Amidala's disappearance forced him to improvise? One theory is that Palpatine intended to kill Queen Amidala. Consider:
As Senator Palpatine, he personally knew Queen Amidala, and he also had the advantage of Force-assisted precognition. He undoubtedly knew that she would not sign a treaty legalizing the invasion.
He knew that a sufficiently heinous atrocity on Naboo would brand Chancellor Valorum a failure and manipulate emotions in the Senate to favour his own election, since he was the official representative of Naboo. The Queen's death wo
Impressive...the last alinea is discutable, but this is not a WOII forum.
well you didn't do it for nothing, i read through all of it, but somehow i really haven't seen clear evidence of Sidious being Palpatine, it's all very obvious, indeed, and the most likely. Call me an idiot or an heretic or just someone who can't read English.
One point that everybody seems to be missing is that all this could also have been operated under a very close "joint venture" between Sidious and Palpatine,
(Well correct me if i missed something in your text)Or Palpatine is simply just another henchman of Darth Sidious like Dooku. The political processes of giving Palpatine power would also benefit Sidious since he would be master of both Dooku and Palpatine. Yoda claims there are only two Sith's, but how can he know if "Sith have been extinct for a millenia?"
Besides, in TPM and AOTC we haven't seen clear evidence of Palpatine already being a Sith lord. No lightning, no dark visions. The only thing that points at this is the way Palpatine seems to be undetected while the whole Jedi council is on his neck. Perhaps it shows his mastery in the Force, but it could also be this way, simply because he isn't a Sith Lord (yet). The Dark Side clouding everything could simply be generated by Darth Sideous himself, or even because of the palace where they are at that time, which we haven't seen in another movie before, is simply a place of the dark side like the tree in Dagobah. (Very inplausible, but yet it is Star Wars.)
Back to the double apprentice theory: Both Dooku and Palpatine are thus influenced by Darth Sideous. Sideous being the mighty master of the Dark Side sees a dark and powerful empire in the future. Since Sideous isn't the person to ever get out of the shadows, which is pointed out by the henchmen he uses to carry out his plans. He offers the "coming empire" to both Palpatine and Dooku, which start a war against each other with the Jedi squashed between them, while the true power is his. Remember Darth Vader saying "I MUST obey my master.", and Yoda: "An Agent of evil you will be." These phrases has kept me thinking even before TPM came out.
If this is the case for Vader, why not for the Emperor himself too? He is or has been a slave of evil also.
It's not clear if Darth Sideous is still alive at this point, but wasn't it GL original plan to make 9 episodes? Perhaps he has stated it will be kept down to 6, but i have never heard or read something like this, so don't brand me for being an idiot at this point. The existence of Darth Sideous could link to a third generation of Skywalkers.
But this alinea above doesn't even matter, it could also be Yoda who wiped Sideous out of existence (on Dagobah perhaps, thus explaining the Dark Side cave.)And while on the subject, how could Palpatine let Yoda go? The Emperor and Vader do not seem to know Yoda is still alive, stated by Vader's "Obi-Wan can no longer teach him" or something like that. If Sideous would have dueled with Yoda, and lost, it wouldn't matter to Palpatine who was already well on his way becoming Emperor (Dooku gone at that point)and assumed Yoda was dead. Palpatine surely wouldn't care at this point, if he never get a message of his old master. Perhaps he thought he was still lurking in the shadows, or perhaps he thought he was dead, and Yoda with him, which they couldn't sense near Sideous dying place, generating a +/-, dark/light effect.
Anyhow, nobody knows for sure about Sideous yet, and it is probably the most disturbing puzzle GL has ever thrown before the fans....
You to have a good point here.
I think we just have to wait until EpIII comes out to know the answer.
BTW : How would a thirth generation of Skywalkers be related with Darth Sidious? What is the link?
Wow, you're actually responding!!
Well let me explain:
The sequel trilogy is the key in the link between Darth Sidious and any generation of Skywalkers (the "heros",of course) after Luke.
(personally i imagine a generation after Luke's generation, so it wouldn't interfere (much) with the Expanded Universe stories.)
If you keep the same big bad guy (Darth Sidious), of the PT with the Sequel Trilogy (ST), and my theory takes place (Darth Sidious being a Shadow emperor) in EPIII, the people find it more plausible that Darth Sidious reappears in the ST. (He'd be old maybe, but Yoda has been 900 years old, so it isn't unimaginable.)Sequels containing the same bad guys, are almost always more fun to watch, then sequels without them. And also, with Sidious still in the film, you can expand on the storyline.
So the relation between Sidious and Skywalker is mostly just moviewise. Luke has never heard of Sidious, and couldn't tell it to his offspring. Sidious however knows of the Skywalkers and wants to revenge on them. That's already a good situation to start the movies with, and very plausible for the SW-loving audience...
By the way, it's not likely this will happen, but i just don't want to take everything for granted. (Until EPIII, that is.)
Another By the way: Do you speak Dutch? Better than English i mean? It would be easier for me to type...
Yep, ik spreek Nederlands. Ik sprak alleen Engels omdat hier ook een paar Engelsen en Fransen zaten, zodat die ook alles kunnen verstaan, maar sinds zij niet antwoorden ...
Het is inderdaad een mogelijk scenario. Of het ook zal gebeuren ...
Darth Sidious is wel al heel oud ondertussen, ik dacht zelfs gelezen te hebben dat hij ouder is dan Yoda.
En met een volgende generatie bedoelt ge dan de generatie achter Luke Skywalker, want dat zijn dan de kinderen van Leia en Han (Jacen en Jaina volgens EU) en van Mara en Luke (Ben).
Eh nee, die daarna. (Luke is opa). Maar sinds het verhaal van Star Wars meer de levensloop beschrijft van Anakin Skywalker en Darth Vader, lijkt het me niet al te realistisch zo'n vervolg.
Tja en Darth Sidious, kan gerust wel ouder zijn dan Yoda, we hebben nooit zijn bovenkant gezien, dus hij kan misschien wel een heel buitenaards hoofd hebben -> en dus een andere levensduur. (Als het dus niet Palpatine is.)
Trouwens, denk je dat Yoda gewoon zo oud is, vanwege zijn soort, of heeft het te maken met zijn meesterschap in de Force? Dat zou ook weer de leeftijd (als hij werkelijk net zo oud is als Yoda) van Darth Sidious verklaren. Wie weet zijn ze elkaar vroeger wel eens eerder tegengekomen....
Wow, de theorieen worden steeds bizarder...
Bij Yoda is het een combinatie van de 2 denk ik.
Maar bij Sidious is het puur omwille van de Dark Side. Uit eigenbelang zorgt hij ervoor dat hij langer blijft leven. Hey, ik heb al rare dingen gehoord over hem.
Ofwel zuigt hij het leven uit andere mensen.
Of hij kloont zijn eigen en plaatst dan zijn geest in de kloon. Zo zou hij dat ook doen met Palpatine als de tijd rijp is. Dan zou hij Palpatine overnemen en regeren als Keizer en niemand die weet dat Palpatine eigenlijk ook een slachtoffer is.
Jaja, het Dark Empire idee dus. Maar misschien is het gewoon eigen van duistere machten dat ze eeuwen blijven bestaan. Kijk maar naar Sauron uit Lord of the Rings...
In verband met die generaties is het inderdaad waar dat Star Wars het verhaal volgt van Anakin Skywalker. Daarom wil Lucas er ook mee stoppen na EpIII.
Hij had trouwens heel andere ideeÃ«n voor de derde trilogie.
Ik weet van niks.
Wat voor ideeen dan?
Het lijkt me wel vreemd, trouwens als er ineens geen nieuwe StarWars films van George Lucas aankomen.
Misschien dat iemand anders films uit het verre verleden of toekomst van de geschiedenis van Star Wars gaat maken. Er is tenslotte ook ooit eens een (hele slechte) film gemaakt over Wicket en de Ewoks.
Er zijn veel mogelijkheden om met Star Wars verder te gaan.
Je hebt de spin-off movies. Zoals Caravan of Courage : An Ewok Adventure en The Battle for Endor.
Dan heb je de cartoons. Zoals de Droidseries en de Ewokseries.
En dan zijn er nog de strips en boeken.
Star Wars zal zeker en vast niet uitsterven.
Nu voor die ideeÃ«n :
Oorspronkelijk was Lucas van plan om een volgende trilogie te maken. Hij zou in EpVI Luke Vader laten vermoorden zodat Luke naar de Dark Side overloopt. Leia zou Luke zijn zus dan wel niet zijn, want dan komt de verloren zus van Luke opdagen die zich dan ook traint in de Force en zo Luke en de Keizer verslaat.
Maar tijdens het filmen van EpVI heeft hij zich bedacht.
I think that Sidious wanted the TradeFed armies to be destroyed In AOTC. He knew about the army that was created and probably knew that the Republic would use it.
Here is the thing right now he is basically in control of the two strongest armies in the galaxy. (TradeFed & Clone Armies). Once the TradeFed is destroyed he will have the strongest army in the galaxy and no one can stand against him. So I think he is intentionally trying to get the TradeFed along with any other army that could become powerful destroyed during the Clone Wars.
I think you're missing something here...
If Darth Sidious has control over both armies, who could use the Confederacy armies against him? Dooku could not since he'll die in EPIII. The death of Dooku would leave the Confederacy in disarray, long enough for Sidious to fill the gap. Don't forget we're talking about battle droids here, so they're easy to change leader.
No reason to waste the Confederacy armies yet.
Look, Sidious has control over both armies.
In the beginning of EpIII, there will be the final battle of the Clone Wars.
Dooku sents the TF armies and Palpatine (who is Sidious) sents the clones.
The clones win and the CIS is destroyed.
Dooku can escape and he goes to Sidious to tell that everything has happened and that their plan worked.
Now Palpatine has these powers in the senate he calls himself the Emperor and he calls the Republic the Empire.
Than he sents Dooku to kill PadmÃ©. He can kill her, but Anakin knows of it and he gets angry. He kills Dooku and his journey to the Dark Side is complete!
And Palpatine won!
Just a possible script for epIII
Don't you think EPI looks like EPIV (princess/queen in trouble, fighters attack great spaceship, boy with force discovered by an older Jedi who dies at the hands of a sith lord.) EPII like EP V (Ground Battle, no sizeable space battle except an asteroid scene, the words "Join me", spoken by a sith lord, replied with "I'll never Join you!", etc.) Your version of EPIII sounds a lot like EPVI, so it's very well possible, but don't you think George has stretched to many parralels like these between the PT and the OT?
Yep, that's true.
But I don't mind. It's like in real life, history repeats itself!
But EpIII starts off with a big ground battle (the end of the Clone Wars) just like EpV. Then it's getting personal.
So EpIII is looking like EpV and EpII is looking like EpVI except for some points like the asteroid space battle, ...
I'd imagine EPIII begins with a battle of space fleets. Why do you think it's a ground battle? Did something leak out or is it just speculation.
I also dreamed very idiotic of EPIII, but one sentence sounded quite cool.
Palpatine made Vader and Obi-Wan battle,(lightsabre action in vrije val.) Vader stole a very valuable thing from a public warehouse. The public accused Obi-Wan and shouted something like "kill Kenobi, kill Kenobi". Yoda standing near Palpatine looked down to the furious masses who sudddenly shouted "kill Yoda, kill the Jedi" Yoda realized then, that the era of the Jedi was over. He looked at Palpatine who put up his hood and he realized that it was the Sith Lord he was looking at. "Underestimated you, we have, Darth Sidious." Then the titles came and Yoda went to smoke a cigarette.
Allright, enough for stupidity.
It is confirmed that EpIII starts with a big ground battle. (It's the end of the Clone Wars). And than it's getting personal.
Lucas said it in an interview.
So it's official.
Too bad. We've already seen a ground battle in the PT. I'd rather see two fleets clash together.
But now i'm contradicting myself because i said i didn't like these PT-OT parralels.