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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Is everybody making too much fuss about The Dark Side?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by The_Grey_Jedi, Jan 27, 2002.

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  1. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    Maybe alcohol "lowers the shields" into new, strange ways of thinking. That's probably the best answer I can give at this point. Oh boy, the backspace key is my friend!! :p

    Jae Angel
     
  2. Sinje_Gawa

    Sinje_Gawa Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2001
    You have the right to make a fist. You have the right to shake that fist in front of me. When that fist hits my face your rights are no longer in question. You are in the wrong. That's Abraham Lincoln, as a lawyer, paraphrased discussing morality as it applies to the law.

    To say there is no black and white is to say that there are no boundaries as long as there are circumstances. There are some actions that circumstances don't excuse. A hard life means nothing. Everyone has circumstances. As a fairly young child I was shot at, beaten, thrown down flights of stairs I barely survived, manipulated, witnessed rape and physical violence, mentally abused for years (and I'm not looking for sympathy, just trying to make a point) - bent, spindled and mutilated. When I had the chance to do the same to the abuser, I didn't take the opportunity. When I had the chance to pull that trigger, when I looked down the barrel of that gun I knew I could probably get off even at that age - especially at that age. But I didn't do it. It doesn't matter what has been done to you, it doesn't excuse you from being moral. It doesn't mean that you should act the same way - ever.

    I'm so f-ing sick of people saying that everything is shades of grey to excuse their actions or not try to be more than they can be... so they don't feel bad about not being fair or human to each other. If you want mediocrity then don't complain about the world. Don't complain about anything. Just live in a dull, drab, dark world. The truth is that everyone tries to paint everything grey because it is easy. Just give in and react. Do to them what they would do to you. But then these same people turn around and expect to be treated better. It's got to start somewhere.

    When I made the choice to save someone else's job at the cost of my own promotion, it didn't seem very grey to me. It was very clear what I had to do. When I could have continued on with my career instead of coming home to help an old friend through a hard time, it didn't seem very grey to me. When I had to choose between taking what I needed to get by and being honest, it didn't seem very grey to me.

    If you'd rather live in your dull, grey worlds then that is all you will get. If you have the balls to draw a line somewhere and say that you will stand for something, that there are boundaries to be crossed and light and dark are real then maybe there is hope for people after all. I for one will not accept that everything is okay from a certain point of view. I've been on both ends, found a line and refused to cross it. People that say otherwise make me sick, they are the reason everything seems so ambiguous - every man for themselves. No thanks, I'd rather not live in that grey world. Feel free to do so, it's apparently easier for some people not to make hard choices. Let other people sweat the details so that you can sleep at night and be comfortable in your grey life.
     
  3. Howlrunner

    Howlrunner Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2001
    I've thought a lot about the Force and it's Dark Side fr quite some time. A while back I was GMing a Star Wars Role Playing Game and one of the players asked me a question about the Force. I can't remember the exact question, but it was something along the lines of "Can I use this Dark Side power through the Light Side?" Of course at the time I said no. But his question stuck with me. Over the years I think I may have come up with something that may have been overlooked.

    There might very well be no Dark Side at all. There is only the Force. As a whole. Not divided at all. There is nothing in the Force that makes it dark. The more I thought about it the more I came yo realize that it's the emotions of the person using the Force at the time that determines wether the power is Light or Dark. Follow me here as I give a couple of examples.

    Example 1: Force Telekinesis is neither light nor dark, correct? It can be used as either however depending on wether the person using the Force is drawing on the fear, anger, agression, and hatred of the Dark side or the peace, love, forgiveness of the Light side. The Force remains the same no matter which way the user goes. It's still the Force correct?

    Example 2: Force Lightning is generally thought of as a Dark Side power. What if the person calling on the Force is not using said lightning to strike at anyone, but as a shield to hold people back from attacking him? It's still Force Lightning. If the person using the Force is drawing on the negative emotions then it's the Dark Side no matter if he uses it to kill someone or not. If he's calling on the positive emotions to create this shied of lightning... Then is not of the Dark Side. The Force that the person is using has not changed at all.

    What makes the Dark Side so seductive to people like Palpatine is simple. It's laziness. Staying on the path of the Light Side takes work. Hard work. Endless dedication. The Dark Side is easy. I can get mad anytime I want to just by remembering some of my past mistakes. It's easy to get angry or to think of someone I hate. So calling on the Dark Side (using power through those emotions) would be infinitely easier than reaching that state of calmness nessecary to use the Light Side. And when power of any sort is easy... It becomes easier and easier to use for your own personal gratification than for the well being of others. This I think is the lure of the Dark Side.

    In answer to the question this thread asked my answer is a heartfelt no. They're not making too much of the Dark Side. I think it's just portrayed wrong. The Dark Side does not come from the Force. It comes from the emotional state of the person wielding it. We should always make a big deal of the Dark Side. The Dark Side in each and every one of us. Those negative emotions we all have. We should all strive every day not to cross over. They likely don't make enough fuss about it. Were I GMing a SW RPG today and someone asked that same question that got me thinking about this subject years ago, I believe today I would say "Yes. You can use that power through the Light Side. Just tell me what your character is feeling."
     
  4. The_Grey_Jedi

    The_Grey_Jedi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2002
    First of all, S_G, I am sorry if I make you sick because my morals don't match yours. Guess what? I've been where you were. Maybe not to the same extent, but I've been all the way down to the bottom of the slime pit to where I thought death was the only release; because death would be perferable to life because life was so abominable. Well, I'm still here, and like you said, I'm not saying this to get pity or sympathy. I'm simply telling you that I have seen the best and worst of humanity, and I can tell you that most of us do not live as the paragon of virtue that you seem to be. So you didn't get revenge. That's admirable. OK, but did you get justice? If you did then what is the difference, and where do you draw the line? So you turned down the promotion so that someone else could keep his/her job. Very impressive, but while you were looking out for that person, who was looking out for you? The grey world does exsist, but it is just that - grey. The middle of the scectrum; the bell curve. Most of us HUMANS live there; we aren't shining pillars of light that all of the world looks to, and we aren't the creeping darkness of despair. We are simply people trying to do our best in the world, but some of us fall short of the glory that you seemed to have reached. It doesn't make us bad or good, it simply makes us who we are. I believe the same is true with the Force.

    Howlrunner, you have actually said what I was trying to say in earlier posts. I even gave the same example of Force Lightning (although I might not have said it as well). I am glad that someone agrees with me at least partialy. Now I don't feel so much like a rejectie! :\

    Open your minds to more then right/wrong, good/evil, light/dark. It might help you connect with people on a deeper level, and perhaps let you sympathize with them in way that wouldn't have been possible before. Just a suggestion. You might be surprised at what happens.
     
  5. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    The Problem with Gray:

    It robs victimes of their right of protest. Grey Jedi, during your difficulties (I'm not seeking details), did you ever think what was happening to you was wrong and unfair? If so then to say everything is grey and noting is right or wrong would prevent you from saying your experience was wrong, for if there is no right there is no wrong. The basis of your protest is gone.

    Grey Jedi's Real Target:

    People who judge others, who presume to take athority that is not theirs to take. Who advocate a harsh, unforgiving morality with standards that are aspirational and not achieveable.

    Right and Wrong's Relation in Reality:

    They are like two blocks of white and black glass, shattered and flung int a kaleidoscope, they whirl around and form patterns but do not ever merge.

    Justice v. Vengeance:

    Society must work to the first but in neglecting motivation and circumstances often goes for the second. A woman kills her husband whom has been abusing her for years, mentally, physically and emotionally. She is placed in jail despite being highly unlikely to commit a similar act or be a danger to the public.

    What should happen is the woman's own hurts should be recognised, the twin evils of her husband's abse and society's neglect and permitted contunance of the abuse should be recognised in sentencing. This is what 'mitigating circumstances' means.

    The reason the woman cannot be allowed to be let off is it would send a message that murder is sometimes permitted, which law cannot do, but a judge can use discretionary power when sentencing to ensure ustice is delivered in place of vengeance.

    ------------------------------

    The above pieces are a response to the ideas in this thread, concerning morals and real life. In Grey Jedi's last post I detected a ot of frustration aimed not at morality, but at those who profess to be morality's judges. These judges are, it may srprise people to know, acting against the morality they claim to represent.

    Two rules underpin much of western morality.

    1: Treat others as you would be treated.
    2: Do not judge others lest you be judged.

    The first is to promote good conduct between us as people, the second recognises we will always make mistakes and it is to none to dole out harsh words for those mistakes.

    I can see exactly at what Grey Jedi is aiming and support that, while disagreeing with his/her grey argument, due to the reasons given above. It is an entirely legitmimate thing to attack.

    The problem with the grey propsal is what it leads us to. It would not grant that which Grey Jedi seems to wish for, a solution to the inclination to harshness and vengeance in humanity.

    Grey Jedi, if I have misread your post then I apologise, it seemed obvious you were very frustrated and angered by judgemental attitudes to morality rather than morality per se. You've done the best you can do with what yo have, can you truly be a bad person if you've done that? No. If you've engaged in murder, rape and robbery, well that's another matter but I suspect not.

    Regards

    Jedi Ben
     
  6. HotsForTahiri77

    HotsForTahiri77 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2002
    I agree JediBen to say that you can walk the middle so easy would be foolish.Yes while Corran Horn is my favorite character in I jedi he believed himself immune to the darkside in an arrogant way.
     
  7. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    JediBen, I've loved a staggering number of your posts! Here's another one to add to that number! :)

    Jae Angel
     
  8. The_Grey_Jedi

    The_Grey_Jedi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2002
    <Bows deeply and respectfuly to Jedi Ben> While I will still argue that the grey world (and Force) does exsist, and that right and wrong are not always as clear as people tend to belive, I thank you, Ben, for stating so eloquently what I did not have the words to say. Light and Dark DO exsist. But sometimes the Light isn't as bright in some places and sometimes the Dark isn't so dim. I will withdrawl my voice from this arguement, as it has nothing more to say that could change your mind. I thank you all for your thoughts and views on this matter, and I apologize if I have offended anyone in anyway. I can assure you that such was not my intention (although I could go into another example here of the grey). All of you are, of course, welcome to continue this thread, and if you do I will very probably read what you write, but I will say no more. Thank you again, and Be Blessed.
    Rachel, The Lady Tiger, and Grey Jedi
     
  9. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Wow.

    I did not expect the response to the post to be like these.

    Thanks,

    Jedi Ben
     
  10. Kier_Nimmion

    Kier_Nimmion Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2000


    Part of me sees the very concept of the Grey Jedi as being nothing more than another add-on to the Real Men, Real Roleplayers list.

    Real Men play Soldiers.
    Real Roleplayers, play Force sensitive Fringers.
    Munchkins, play Grey Jedi or whatever gives them the most plusses.
    Real Loonies, play turetic Jawas.

    Another part also says that if Lucas had meant there to be Grey Jedi, there would be a Grey Side to the Force. Plus Sinje's initial post summed it all up perfectly.

     
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